Peter C

I am so upset that SWA is leaving EYW it has taken me this long to chime in. So much fanfare/fluff about being a part of the community when they arrive at a new city. Then, bang....gone. Instead of perhaps scaling back on flights per day or only operating certain days a week in the down season they do the reversal and blame it on "not being profitable". Look at the load factors and they were doing quite well. Had they stuck it out, they were well on their way to surpassing DAL to being the #1 carrier into EYW (in only a few years), but I guess the slots opening at DCA, LGA were too enticing for the executive leadership in Dallas. I guess no one spoke up to the thought that having a resort destination like EYW on the route map which would drive first timers to converts, an option for regulars, and offer a great marketing tool was a good idea to continue. Now that they seemingly have abandoned the "SWA Way" (what made them great). Coming in professing great intentions, then leave when things were going well to chase perhaps fleeting higher load factors elsewhere. At some point, someone in the SWA Boardroom has to speak up and say you can't have it both ways, selling yourself as being different and "low cost" reaching all destinations large and small, then acting just like the legacy carriers. This severe bout of cognitive dissonance may bring a few more bucks short term, but they stand to lose their bread and butter customers with actions like these which I might add is already happening. You can fool some of the people some of the time...you know the rest....

Bring back Herb!

joshua362

Welcome and I concur fully. Took my family there in March and loved it. Packed flights both ways, no issue with the runways in the rain, little terminal, etc... Just too friggin bad...

nsx

Key West has the same problem as Hawaii: Very few high-fare business passengers and mostly low-fare leisure passengers.

You want Southwest at Key West so you can pay a low fare. They can't remain there because the fares are too low.

If Southwest learns its lesson here, anyone waiting for Hawaii service will be waiting a long time.

Peter C

When they began service I am sure they did their market research knowing that the only business there were the sales of sandals and tee shirts, and an occasional drink...lol. The ALL/USA merger freed up slots in bigger markets. Only so many planes/crews. Was it a surprise that the same day they bolted from EWY and the others, they made it public that they would be buyers of the slots in DCA and LGA? They decided to dash for the elusive cash....previous promises/assertions be damned. As a regular traveler to EYW the fares for the distances involved where fairly high if you could find a seat...we all know when that happens, the highest fares are only available. ((case in point: today a round trip to EYW Feb 6-9 from any airport in midatlantic/northeast, a standard long weekend. Only Biz Select and anytimefares ($20-30 differnce between them) on a return only Biz Select available)) As a passenger, yes, like most I do look for good fares. As a dedicated SWA traveler for decades, I expected with those load factors and widely professed commitments to a community to stick it out longer or just say we are changing our model....we going to compete with the top 3 carriers at the big airports. Isn’t it ironic that an airline who made themselves great flying to smaller/alternate airports are arguably giving three of those up for two major big city airports. Agreed, Hawaii has no hope, or they will do it for a year and cease when they get an opportunity for more slots at major airports on the mainland and say, the route wasn't profitable, those pesky leisure travelers were demanding frozen drinks with umbrellas on board....that seems to be the new playbook. Call me crazy but I still have hope that they might change their minds or return to EYW in the future....hope springs...

djp98374

Hawaii and Key west are apples and oranges.

Key west is a place where some people love it and others hate it.

In the SE you also have FLL, TPA, MCO, etc...

With Hawaii you do has business traffic from the Pacific coast cities so you will get enough of a mix.With Keywest you have the alternate of flying into MIA/FLL and drive...cant do that with hawaii.

JoeFlyer

According to airfare insight average seat cost per passenger mile, the EYW routes are much higher than the Southwest average. Airfare insight shows the average paid per passenger on a flight . . . so it makes even less sense why Southwest would pull out.

My only thought is that Delta and other majors make a ton of money on luggage fees. Key West consistently has overloaded planes because of the short runway and high temperatures. Maybe that factored into their decision?

joshua362

3 of us took 6 large bags in/out on fully loaded planes, landing on a wet runway. The physics seem to make it possible. The economics?

Agree this is BS. Yes, the fares might have been low but what did they expect? Airtran made it work. Same problems for SJU?

Maybe everyone is burning their points and CP here? We did and hope to do one more time before the end.

alggag

I too was very disappointed when they announced that EYW was getting the hook for many if the reasons already stated. Sure, you can drive from FLL but it's a fairly long drive especially when you consider that EYW is so close in that one can even walk to their hotel if traveling lightly and the weather is nice. Also, the fact that having a car on the island is more hassle than it's worth just piles it on more.

I've heard that WN's biggest issue with EYW wasn't exactly the loads or even yields but rather the fact that they couldn't operate anywhere close to on schedule thanks to have a single parking space. When I was there last week we were delayed by about about an hour both coming and going despite the fact that the aircraft had physically landed at EYW on time (early in fact) and ended up just having to wait while the aircraft in front of unloaded and loaded. That excuse wouldn't really bother me so much back in the days of old WN that insisted on only flying to the no hassle airports but now with the likes of SFO, EWR, PHL, and an increasingly large presence at LGA just makes it sound like a cop out. For what's it worth, the LF inbound MSY-EYW was about 65% while EYW-MSY was at about 90% and FWIW nearly everybody bought a drink on both legs, both with tickets and credit cards.

I'm also disappointed that they weren't even considering to break from their mold and at least serve EYW on a seasonal basis. Unfortunately, I think the only chance we have at seeing WN back in Key West would be if Key West NAS is ever converted into a civilian use airport as it's a significantly larger airfield (at least compared to EYW).

traveller001

I've seen two FL aircraft parked at EYW at the same time. One empty ready to board and one arriving obviously at different parking spots.

I don't think they even considered overnighting an aircraft which made much more sense to me to connect Southwest. Later arrival say 5pm enabling connections from everywhere and earlier say 10am departure enabling same on the outbound. Instead they added a MSY early afternoon which enabled DAL-EYW but not any PST timezone- EYW.

traveller001

I posed that point in the forum and someone suggested Key West NAS was an important carrier landing practice point. That said in several Key West trips I never saw a Navy fighter in the sky.

OTOH activity at Pensacola NAS which also has carrier arrest activity is always high.

boudinboat

Recalling a pic I posted last March when I saw three aircraft on the ground at the same time. Really felt for the folks on the plane that was landing as they had to wait for #1 to finish loading and #2 to completely unload/reload before they could start the rest of their vacation. Happy hour only lasts so long!

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/south...l#post20450002

Beckles

Full Planes does not equal profitable flights. If the flights were profitable enough I have no reason to believe that Southwest would not have continued them.
If it was so profitable, why would any of that matter anyway? Now it sounds like you're trying to justify it's existence as a Southwest destination despite it's lack of profitability.
If they still practiced the old fashioned "SWA Way" I think it's unlikely they ever would have started service to EYW.
But I thought you said if you look at load factors they are doing quite well?
I have never seen them try and sell themselves in that manner.
They never would have started service to EYW under the model they operated under when Herb was with the airline.

(Key West High School class of 1991, so I'm disappointed they are leaving too ...)

Peter C

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter C
Instead of perhaps scaling back on flights per day or only operating certain days a week in the down season they do the reversal and blame it on "not being profitable". Look at the load factors and they were doing quite well. Had they stuck it out, they were well on their way to surpassing DAL to being the #1 carrier into EYW (in only a few years)

Full Planes does not equal profitable flights. If the flights were profitable enough I have no reason to believe that Southwest would not have continued them.

Agreed, but see Flyer Joe’s quote from “Airline Insight” relative to seat costs on those runs. Combine that with the anecdotal info on full planes mentioned above and it calls into question the “profitability excuse”. Perhaps not “profitable enough”. They were less expensive than DEL/AA into EYW and they were on the way to being the #1 carrier in EYW. If that is the case raise the fares, lessen the daily frequency or operate on a seasonal schedule. There is no entitlement to cheap airfares. If not, dispense with the excuses and say we want to take our planes and crews and take on the big boys at big airports instead. My point is do what you can to keep the service you went out of your way to promote when you came.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter C
I guess no one spoke up to the thought that having a resort destination like EYW on the route map which would drive first timers to converts, an option for regulars, and offer a great marketing tool was a good idea to continue.

If it was so profitable, why would any of that matter anyway? Now it sounds like you're trying to justify it's existence as a Southwest destination despite it's lack of profitability.

It matters because that’s part of a smart strategy to expand your business and build loyalty. Folks who will routinely fill the seats on your planes….and keep coming back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter C
Now that they seemingly have abandoned the "SWA Way" (what made them great).

If they still practiced the old fashioned "SWA Way" I think it's unlikely they ever would have started service to EYW.

That might be true, but given their growth and expansion it is certainly within the realm of plausibility, but in the end, no one really knows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter C
Coming in professing great intentions, then leave when things were going well to chase perhaps fleeting higher load factors elsewhere.

But I thought you said if you look at load factors they are doing quite well?

I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter C
At some point, someone in the SWA Boardroom has to speak up and say you can't have it both ways, selling yourself as being different and "low cost" reaching all destinations large and small, then acting just like the legacy carriers.

I have never seen them try and sell themselves in that manner.

We see it differently. It is hard to deny that the company ethos has changed from what it once was. It was once a smart airline that gained market share by offering no frills and undercutting the big boys by using smaller airports with a “down-home” marketing plan offering generous a RR plan. Now they have cut back with RR 2.0 and seem to be acting like a “small legacy carrier”….and I would posit that their marketing department hasn’t caught up…or never will, hence the usage of “cognitive dissonance”.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter C
Bring back Herb!

They never would have started service to EYW under the model they operated under when Herb was with the airline.

Again, we will never know for sure.

(Key West High School class of 1991, so I'm disappointed they are leaving too ...)

This we can unequivocally agree on!!

FWAAA

Southwest certainly didn't pay billions of dollars to acquire FL so it could serve Key West. Or Branson. Or any of the other niche towns that FL served.

FL paid very low wages compared to WN (which is now the high wage airline, following AA's bankruptcy). When you pay very low wages, you can serve places that don't make sense when those wages are increased to WN-payrates. But it's not just the wages.

As others have said, Key West would never have been started by Herb's Southwest. There are some smaller cities in Texas that WN has long served from DAL and HOU, but those places aren't anything like Key West.

beachmouse

And VPS is an ongoing shared runway situation with Eglin AFB and a contract for something like 80 civilian landing slot a day even though Eglin has always been quite active and is now the main training base for the F-35 project.

IIRC, there's also a fair amount of overlap between ECP (Panama City) and Tyndall AFB, with Tyndall handling ATC in the area.

The Pentagon is often willing to play quite nice when they've got an interest in making it easy for them to move their own personnel around on civilian commercial carriers.