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Old May 12, 2006, 10:45 pm
  #181  
 
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I am a Moderate Episcopalian and love the "High Church" mass. However I am not one to wear a suit and tie to mass. I dress casually. I usually wear a pair of khaki cargo pants and a long sleeve t-shirt. I dont believe that it is a requirement to dress up for church. God loves you no matter what. Now I am not saying I am gonna wear torn jeans and a torn t-shirt or wear anything with alcohol or tobacco logos on it. I feel comfortable in other denominations such as the United Methodist Church (Which I am a former member), The RC Church, The ELCA, The PCUSA, The UCC, and several other Liberal to Mainline Protestant Churches. I do not visit any Baptist, Pentacostal, Church of Christ or any other Conservative to Fundamental Churches.

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Old May 20, 2006, 1:28 pm
  #182  
 
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Originally Posted by Analise
Like our Roman Catholic brethren, Episcopalians believe in transubstantiation. For Episcopalians, the Holy Eucharist IS the body and blood of Christ. It's not a memorial; it is Christ.
I respectfully disagree. According to Article XXVIII.
Originally Posted by Articles of Religion, Episcopal Church, adopted 12 September 1801
Of the Lord's Supper Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions.
We beleive in "Consubstantiation," where the Bread and Wine, which represent Christ, deserve respect for the same reason the American flag or a photo of your children do, but they are not themselves "holy." It's traditional for the sermon to come after Eucharist so parishioners can't leave before they've digested the host...but that (like the issue of whether the altar should be attached to the Jerusalem wall or free standing with the priest facing the Congregation) is of interest only to us real nerds...and seems quaint in the wake of the Gene Robinson ordination.

Where do you attend church in New York? I went to the church on Wall Street the last time I was there...it was very moving.
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Old May 22, 2006, 8:10 am
  #183  
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Originally Posted by John Galt
Where do you attend church in New York? I went to the church on Wall Street the last time I was there...it was very moving.
Did you go to Trinity Church, Wall Street? It's a beautiful building. My parish is St. Thomas Church, Fifth Avenue. Whenever you're in town, come to church. Their is a Eucharist daily. On Sunday, we celebrate the mass at 8am, 9am and 11am. If you join us, I encourage you to pay attention to the liturgy and you will see that the body and blood of Christ are given to us directly. The wafer and wine are consecrated and thus become the Body and Blood of our Lord.

From BCP (the bolding is mine):

Then the Celebrant continues

All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for
that thou, of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus
Christ to suffer death upon the cross for our redemption; who
made there, by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full,
perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for
the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy
Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that
his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again.

At the following words concerning the bread, the Celebrant is to hold
it, or lay a hand upon it; and at the words concerning the cup, to hold
or place a hand upon the cup and any other vessel containing wine to be
consecrated


For in the night in which he was betrayed, he took bread;
and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave it to his
disciples, saying, "Take, eat, this is my Body, which is given for
you. Do this in remembrance of me."

Likewise, after supper, he took the cup; and when he had
given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, "Drink ye all of this;
for this is my Blood of the New Testament, which is shed for
you, and for many, for the remission of sins. Do this, as oft as
ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me."

Wherefore, O Lord and heavenly Father, according to the
institution of thy dearly beloved Son our Savior Jesus Christ,
we, thy humble servants, do celebrate and make here before
thy divine Majesty, with these thy holy gifts, which we now
offer unto thee, the memorial thy Son hath commanded us to
make; having in remembrance his blessed passion and precious
death, his mighty resurrection and glorious ascension;
rendering unto thee most hearty thanks for the innumerable
benefits procured unto us by the same.

And we most humbly beseech thee, O merciful Father, to
hear us; and, of thy almighty goodness, vouchsafe to bless
and sanctify, with thy Word and Holy Spirit, these thy gifts
and creatures of bread and wine; that we, receiving them
according to thy Son our Savior Jesus Christ's holy institution,
in remembrance of his death and passion, may be partakers
of his most blessed Body and Blood.

And we earnestly desire thy fatherly goodness mercifully to
accept this our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving; most
humbly beseeching thee to grant that, by the merits and
death of thy Son Jesus Christ, and through faith in his blood,
we, and all thy whole Church, may obtain remission of our
sins, and all other benefits of his passion.

And here we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, our selves,
our souls and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy, and living
sacrifice unto thee; humbly beseeching thee that we, and all
others who shall be partakers of this Holy Communion, may
worthily receive the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son
Jesus Christ, be filled with thy grace and heavenly benediction,
and made one body with him, that he may dwell in us, and
we in him.

And although we are unworthy, through our manifold sins,
to offer unto thee any sacrifice, yet we beseech thee to accept
this our bounden duty and service, not weighing our merits,
but pardoning our offences, through Jesus Christ our Lord;

By whom, and with whom, in the unity of the Holy Ghost,
all honor and glory be unto thee, O Father Almighty, world
without end. AMEN.

And now, as our Savior Christ hath taught us, we are bold
to say,

[The Lord's Prayer is said aloud while kneeling]

The Breaking of the Bread

The Celebrant breaks the consecrated Bread.

A period of silence is kept.

Then may be sung or said


[Alleluia.] Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us;
Therefore let us keep the feast. [Alleluia.]

In Lent, Alleluia is omitted, and may be omitted at other times except
during Easter Season.

The following or some other suitable anthem may be sung or said here


O Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world,
have mercy upon us.

O Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world,
have mercy upon us.

O Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world,
grant us thy peace.

The following prayer may be said. The People may join in saying this
prayer of humble access


We do not presume to come to this thy Table, O merciful
Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in thy manifold
and great mercies. We are not worthy so much as to gather
up the crumbs under thy Table. But thou art the same Lord
whose property is always to have mercy. Grant us therefore,
gracious Lord, so to eat the flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ,
and to drink his blood, that we may evermore dwell in him,
and he in us. Amen.

Facing the people, the Celebrant may say the following Invitation

The Gifts of God for the People of God.

and may add

Take them in remembrance that Christ died for you, and
feed on him in your hearts by faith, with thanksgiving.


The ministers receive the Sacrament in both kinds, and then immediately
deliver it to the people


The Bread and the Cup are given to the communicants with these words

The Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was given for thee,
preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life. Take and eat
this in remembrance that Christ died for thee, and feed on
him in thy heart by faith, with thanksgiving.

The Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, which was shed for thee,
preserve thy body and soul unto everlasting life. Drink this in
remembrance that Christ's Blood was shed for thee, and be
thankful.


or with these words

The Body (Blood) of our Lord Jesus Christ keep you in
everlasting life. [Amen.]


or with these words


The Body of Christ, the bread of heaven. [Amen.]

The Blood of Christ, the cup of salvation. [Amen.]
I included the entire sanctification of the holy mysteries. The prayer of Humble Access along with the words the priests say as they distribute communion show that we as Christians are taking in the body and blood of Christ. No representation, no facsimile...this is it.
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Old Jun 9, 2006, 7:38 am
  #184  
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Well, I did some research over the weekend about transubstantiation and the Episcopal Church and I have to say......I was completely wrong. According to the Articles of Religion, my church does NOT believe in transubstantiation which is what so many of you were telling me. Instead, I was focusing on the liturgy of the service, not the Articles of Religion. As you can see, they both clash. I spoke with my priests about this and some close friends about this complete conflict.

I am in a parish in New York probably unlike any other parish in the Episcopal Church. We are truly Anglo-Catholic and that we are probably more in line with the Roman Catholic Church than with the Episcopal Church itself. Our priests do in fact preach that the Holy Communion IS IN FACT the body and blood of Christ. The clergy in my church think our denomination is WAY too protestant and that the diocese is completely wrong about transubstantiation. Sooooo, this is why I have been so head strong about the Holy Mysteries and why I was amazed that the RC Church would not allow me to take Holy Communion. Finally, I now understand why. I still disagree with them because only God knows what is in our hearts, but I do understand their reasoning.

I'm a stubborn person and like to think that I've got the answer for everything (the # of posts I have in FT might give that away ). Yet when I'm wrong, I admit it and on this thread I was wrong about the offical stance my denomination takes about transubstantiation. I completely disagree with them. Maybe I'm now a "Cafeteria Episcopalian" because I lean toward Roman Catholicism and willfully disregard my church's stance on transubstantiation. I think they are wrong. If I were to leave New York permanently, I'm not sure if I could find an Anglo-Catholic parish like mine in New York. In that case, I'd rather go to a Catholic Mass than to an Episcopal mass which does not recognize the bread and wine as the Body and Blood of the Lord.

Ok.........you all can say "I told you so!"
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Old Jun 18, 2006, 11:13 am
  #185  
 
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Analise, with the conservative church you attend, what is your take on the 75th GC and the response to the Windsor report? Is your parish considering membership in the AAC?

The Diocese of Texas is, as you'd suspect, rather conservative. It's also growing much faster than the ECUSA as a whole, implying that people tend to like our version more than the newer interpretations....

I didn't create a new thread for this, because I didn't want to attract the Usual Suspects whose major religious value seems to be derision....
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Old Jun 18, 2006, 11:34 am
  #186  
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Originally Posted by Dovster
I have been to many Catholic churches, a number of Protestant ones, and some mosques. Obviously, when I go simply as a tourist, I try to be quiet, dress appropriately, and show respect for the site.

When I am more than a tourist -- for example, attending a Christmas Mass to enjoy the beauty of it or going to a Presbyterian wedding -- this question of how to behave becomes a bit trickier. In general, I have adopted the practice of not joining in prayers or hymns or making any sign that I am.

Hence, I will stand and sit with the congregation, but I will not kneel.

I will contribute if the basket is being passed around, but I will not accept communion (even in the Protestant churches where the communion plate is given from person to person).

I will not light a candle in a Catholic Church, but I have paid for candles and asked priests to light them and say a prayer for a Catholic friend who has a problem.

I will not bless myself with holy water nor make the sign of the cross.

I do remove my hat in a Christian church, even though it is Jewish tradition to have your head covered in a synagogue and I remove my shoes in a mosque.

Do you agree with my actions? Do you handle it in the same way or differently?
I would behave about the same. I might kneel if everyone else did. In general, while I have made it clear that I am not a fan of organized religion and reject the right of any other religion to impose their beliefs or behaviours on me this is a different situation. If I, for what ever reason go into a church I of another faith I try to behave with complete respect for their protocols and rules out of respect for them. I have found this most difficult in places where I know little about the religion such as in Asian temples. Fortunately, I usually have a guide or there are signs about what to do and not do. Although it was hard to kneel on the floor, or more precisely, sit on my legs in some of those Buddhist temples.
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Old Jun 18, 2006, 12:03 pm
  #187  
 
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Originally Posted by John Galt
I didn't create a new thread for this, because I didn't want to attract the Usual Suspects whose major religious value seems to be derision....
Oh John, you are so right.

Meanwhile, Analise, I think it's going to be hard to find a Catholic Church to your liking unless you go to one of the very conservative churches... those still performing Latin Masses.

I've found to my great stress and distress that many Catholic churches play far too loose with important things, so that the Mass ends up being less "Catholic" than many Episcopal liturgies. For example, the priests don't adequately preach that the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Christ. They fail to remind people that they are in the presence of Almighty God.

The music is often of poor quality too with simple melodies and boring lyrics. Whereas many of the Episcopal churches maintain the more complex (and in my mind, more beautiful) hymns. Oh do I miss high masses!

And the part that requires great patience is when priests permit church-goers to chat and talk out loud before Mass when I think it should be time spent preparing for the sacrament.

So, to tie this back into the topic at hand (in a small way), at least in my church, I think parishoners don't behave n their own church as respectfully as they would in another religion's place of worship.

Rita
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Old Jun 18, 2006, 12:25 pm
  #188  
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Originally Posted by Analise
Ok.........you all can say "I told you so!"
I told yo ... <kidding> . I'm just pleased you researched further.
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Old Jun 18, 2006, 5:17 pm
  #189  
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Originally Posted by Analise
Like our Roman Catholic brethren, Episcopalians believe in transubstantiation. For Episcopalians, the Holy Eucharist IS the body and blood of Christ. It's not a memorial; it is Christ.

Now that is news to me--is it all Anglicans or just high Anglicans?

Never mind, just read the fruits of your research!

Last edited by ContinentalFan; Jun 18, 2006 at 5:57 pm Reason: Read a later post!
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Old Jun 18, 2006, 5:49 pm
  #190  
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Originally Posted by rkt10
sanFF,
I'm a pretty conservative Roman Catholic (my mother was a nun before she married) and I've never heard of a chemical change the the bread and wine. Rather, we were taught that the bread and wine maintain the properties of bread and wine but that they are still, truly and absolutely the body and blood of Christ.

I know that's a mighty and incredible concept to be faced with believing, and that's where the notion of faith comes in. Logic will never explain it. Only faith will accept it.

I do think the moment of consecration is actually sensible. Otherwise, at what point would the bread and wine stop being bread and wine and start being something greater. It is also a moment of great reverence for the recollection of the Last Supper and the great gift that Christ made of himself then and now. I can't imagine any other way of doing it.

Rita
Yep, it is a transubstantiation not a transformation: there is no chemical change! The 'change' doesn't coincide with the bell ringing either.
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Old Jun 22, 2006, 1:21 pm
  #191  
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Originally Posted by John Galt
Analise, with the conservative church you attend, what is your take on the 75th GC and the response to the Windsor report? Is your parish considering membership in the AAC?
No, my parish will never leave the Episcopal church. The membership of my church is about 25% gay (gay males, maybe a few lesbians) yet don't confuse sexual orientation with progressive worship. Most of these men are former Catholics who have found a home in the Episcopal Church because they feel it to be more welcoming their own home parishes. They love the rituals of our parish worship which are basically many of the Catholic rituals prior to Vatican II. Latin masses, incense, kneeling at the altar, high church....

Last edited by Analise; Jun 22, 2006 at 1:29 pm
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Old Jun 22, 2006, 1:27 pm
  #192  
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Originally Posted by letiole
I told yo ... <kidding> . I'm just pleased you researched further.
This was eye-opening. I'm also surprised it took 9 days for anyone to respond to my HUGE admission.
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Old Jun 22, 2006, 1:40 pm
  #193  
 
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Originally Posted by ContinentalFan
Yep, it is a transubstantiation not a transformation: there is no chemical change! The 'change' doesn't coincide with the bell ringing either.
I always thought it was changed during the words.
But the bell ringing was acknowledgement that Christ was being shown to us for the first time since transubstatiation.

R.
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Old Jun 22, 2006, 1:45 pm
  #194  
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Originally Posted by rkt10
I always thought it was changed during the words.
But the bell ringing was acknowledgement that Christ was being shown to us for the first time since transubstatiation.

R.
I love the bell ringing. In my SIL's church, they play the banjo.
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Old Aug 27, 2006, 9:27 pm
  #195  
 
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Fencing the Table

I read some discussion on this thread about whether or not to receive sacramental communion while visiting chuches. In churches that are theologically, doctrinally, and historically borne of the Protestant Reformation and that confess to yet follow the tenets derived from the Reformation (these are often called "Reformed" churches), quite a few of these "fence the table." If you are interested in receiving the bread and the wine, show up to church 15 minutes early and ask someone if you may speak to an elder who will give you "permission" to take the sacrament upon your confessed faith in Jesus Christ's saving grace. If you do not confess Jesus Christ, you are asked to abstain. The church takes the sacrament quite seriously and this procedure is set in place by them as a safeguard to protect you from harm (this stemming from Biblical text stating that worshippers in Corinth were dying from inappropriately -- without faith -- taking of the Lord's Supper). The "interview" with an elder ensures that you know what you're doing by receiving the sacrament.
In Reformed churches, the sacrament of the Lord's Supper is not merely a symbol but actually the spiritual nourishment of Christ's church. It serves to strengthen and advance the faith in Christ that the worshipper was first granted by grace.
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