Go Back   > > >
View Poll Results: Do you agree or disagree with the action undertaken by MKEbound?
Agree 766 75.92%
Disagree 144 14.27%
Neither agree nor disagree 75 7.43%
Not sure 24 2.38%
Voters: 1009. You may not vote on this poll

 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Sep 26, 06, 4:49 pm   #16
  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Lahaina, Hawai'i
Programs: HA Pua. Platinum WP, PR, QF, UA, AA, DL, NW Prince Preferred
Posts: 4,786
Quote:
Originally Posted by justageek
Totally different scenario. All the OP did was write "Kip Hawley is an Idiot" on a bag. That is not a threat, nor is it an indication of any lawbreaking. Telling an ICE agent that you have a baggie of cocaine is quite a different story!
Seemed to have the same result. 25 minutes of getting berated for being a smarty pants.

Last edited by kaukau; Sep 26, 06 at 5:08 pm
kaukau is offline  
Old Sep 26, 06, 4:53 pm   #17
FlyerTalk Evangelist
  
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: SNA
Programs: UA Million Mile Nobody, Marriott Platinum Elite, SPG Gold
Posts: 25,229
Someone should go through the same checkpoint with a baggie that says "Kip Hawley is my HERO!", or "Bush / Cheney '04". See their reaction then. If they let you through without any problems then you have a solid case.
flyinbob is offline  
Old Sep 26, 06, 4:58 pm   #18
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
  
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 83,605
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaukau
Seemed to have the same result.
That's like saying that putting an egg in the frying pan or tossing it into an active volcano has the same result.

If I say "jump" within earshot of the dog, the dog jumps. If I say "jump" within earshot of the paranoid homeless woman wandering around DC who thinks the post-2000 election America is made in God's image, she doesn't jump. But if I say "hi" to her, she jumps like a scared cat. Same results, different causes, different situations. That is, apples to oranges.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 26, 06, 5:00 pm   #19
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
  
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 83,605
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinbob
Someone should go through the same checkpoint with a baggie that says "Kip Hawley is my HERO!", or "Bush / Cheney '04". See their reaction then. If they let you through without any problems then you have a solid case.
"Kip Hawley is a genius" would be more comparable.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 26, 06, 5:03 pm   #20
Ari
FlyerTalk Evangelist
  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 10,734
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinbob
Someone should go through the same checkpoint with a baggie that says "Kip Hawley is my HERO!", or "Bush / Cheney '04". See their reaction then. If they let you through without any problems then you have a solid case.
The OP would have a solid equal protection case.

The First Amendment case here is already solid since "Kip Hawley is an Idiot" is clearly protected speech.

You may not be allowed to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater, but you are allowed to yell "The fire martial is an idiot".
Ari is offline  
Old Sep 26, 06, 5:04 pm   #21
  
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: FAY
Programs: AA, DL, UA Silver, HHonors Silver
Posts: 8,358
Quote:
Originally Posted by GUWonder
If I say "jump" within earshot of the paranoid homeless woman wandering around DC who thinks the post-2000 election America is made in God's image, she doesn't jump. But if I say "hi" to her, she jumps like a scared cat.
So you've met my ex, then. Glad to hear she is still well.
etch5895 is offline  
Old Sep 26, 06, 5:14 pm   #22
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
  
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 83,605
Quote:
Originally Posted by etch5895
So you've met my ex, then. Glad to hear she is still well.
I don't know if I'd call her well, but she looks more well-fed.

So who here will be the next to go through with a plastic bag marked with benign political commentary?

"The Freedom Bag".
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 26, 06, 5:20 pm   #23
FlyerTalk Evangelist
  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Under an ORD approach path
Programs: DL PM, MM, RW, SC. Coffee isn't a drug, it's a vitamin.
Posts: 12,892
Please remind me, what nation did this happen in?
Gargoyle is offline  
Old Sep 26, 06, 5:24 pm   #24
FlyerTalk Evangelist
  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: BWI
Programs: AA PLAT, HH Diamond, National Emerald Club Executive, TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 15,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gargoyle
Please remind me, what nation did this happen in?
The United States of Amerika, Komrade.
Superguy is offline  
Old Sep 26, 06, 5:31 pm   #25
  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 430
Because the LEO had to come over, he did have the right to run your name for warrants and it is common practice for a LEO to take down information for anything he's involved in. It's no big deal. Never be seen as verbally abusive to a LEO or you'll probably wind up in serious trouble, whether it was justified or not, which obviously wasn't your case. However, the TSA idiots should never have brought it that far. And they have no right to get your personall information. Even if you are arrested the TSA should not have your personall information. Only the LEO. I would have demanded to see the airport authority right then and there. They have juristiction of the TSA agents and LEO's assigned to that airport.

I can't believe i have to fly tomorrow...
Travellin' Fool is offline  
Old Sep 26, 06, 5:32 pm   #26
  
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 8,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari
You may not be allowed to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater, but you are allowed to yell "The fire martial is an idiot".
You can only yell "The fire martial is an idiot" if a reasonable person wouldn't be incited to panic by your yelling it. Words that incite a disturbance of the peace are not protected by the First Amendment, and context matters.

Again, I think the OP's words are protected, but the deputy was completely correct in pointing out that not all speech is protected, and even the TSA guy was somewhat correct in saying that your First Amendment rights are more restricted in the airport than outside the airport--although that doesn't mean he was correct in saying that the OP's words were proscribable even in the context of an airport.
themicah is offline  
Old Sep 26, 06, 5:34 pm   #27
  
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Arizona
Programs: *wood Gold, Marriott Gold, DL Silver, Hilton Silver, F9 Ascent
Posts: 2,420
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKEbound
I have a couple of questions:
Could I have refused to provide my ID and/or address to the officer since I wasn't under arrest?
When asked for my ID do I have to hand it over or can I hang on to it? By giving it to the deputy, he walked of with it and I felt stuck.
In almost any jurisdiction you are required to produce identification to a *sworn law enforcement officer* (aka peace officer) when asked to do so. Since airports are given some special leeway (ie 4th Amendment search issues) you also need to produce ID for other officials--airlines, TSA etc. If you refuse to produce ID then the LEO can detain you until he/she is reasonably certain of your identity. Providing an ID (driver license, passport etc) just makes it easier for the LEO so as to not have to detain--but not arrest--you in the form of taking you to the station to run your fingerprints.

Providing your passport was a good move. Typically, yes, you have to surrender the identification article produced while the LEO does his/her check...the idea is to keep you from running off; after all, if it's a traffic stop, a bad guy isn't going to drive away without your license, right?

Yes, you could have refused to provide your address. But then you run the risk of being held up for another 10 minutes while you try to convince them they don't really need your address. If you had given your state ID/DL then and address is on the card and they would have simply used that. But other gov't IDs (since you don't have to use your ID/DL to get through airport security) that don't have addresses puts the LEO in an odd spot...he/she probably does need an address to complete the report (just for the sake of filling in the box but reports are filled all the time without said information) so then the LEO has to rely on you to provide a genuine address. Of course how can the LEO know RR 1234 Box A is your primary address? They usually insist on a street address and RRs are perfectly valid. I have a friend who is a total privacy nut so when people *insist* they need his address or phone number he uses 87-135 Brompton Road, Knightsbridge, London SW1X 7XL phone 020 7225 6633 (Harrod's) if he feels they really don't need the information other than putting it into a computer or filling a form (Radio Shack, returns at CompUSA, etc).
jonesing is offline  
Old Sep 26, 06, 5:55 pm   #28
FlyerTalk Evangelist
  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Under an ORD approach path
Programs: DL PM, MM, RW, SC. Coffee isn't a drug, it's a vitamin.
Posts: 12,892
Quote:
Originally Posted by themicah
and even the TSA guy was somewhat correct in saying that your First Amendment rights are more restricted in the airport than outside the airport--although that doesn't mean he was correct in saying that the OP's words were proscribable even in the context of an airport.
Perhaps there is a droplet of truth in what the TSA guy said; however, in this context what he did was a direct assault on the constitution and the bill of rights by a government official. IMHO that is treason. OP, please don't let this slide; talk with the press and the ACLU. Quite simply, you are the patriot, and they are the terrorists.

(I'm no Spiff, but this one makes my American blood boil)
Gargoyle is offline  
Old Sep 26, 06, 6:00 pm   #29
  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Lahaina, Hawai'i
Programs: HA Pua. Platinum WP, PR, QF, UA, AA, DL, NW Prince Preferred
Posts: 4,786
It's all heresay. As galling as it is. All heresay. Am I wrong? Hard to prove a suit, but makes a great story.

Last edited by kaukau; Sep 26, 06 at 6:07 pm
kaukau is offline  
Old Sep 26, 06, 6:01 pm   #30
FlyerTalk Evangelist
  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Newport Beach, California, USA
Programs: Premier Gold on UA
Posts: 35,852
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinbob
Someone should go through the same checkpoint with a baggie that says "Kip Hawley is my HERO!", or "Bush / Cheney '04". See their reaction then. If they let you through without any problems then you have a solid case.
This is fairly well-trod ground from a constitutional perspective. Cohen v. Superior Court upheld the right to engage in political speech, even offensive political speech, in public and quasi-public fora. Cohen addressed wearing a jacket with the words "F**k the Draft" printed on the back. I don't see much difference between the facts in Cohen and the OP's facts, except that the OP's political speech was neither profane nor offensive. I suspect that TSA's authority is comprehensive enough to determine that the writing on the bag wasn't indicative of instability or threatening behavior on the part of the OP. Once that was determined, however, everything else was a signficant over-reaction that, clearly, has a chilling effect on speech.

What would happen if, when I go through the WMD tomorrow with my partner on our way to a business meeting, I say to her, "I think this whole security thing is a dog-and-pony show. Any politician who supports it, as well as anyone who devised it, is an absolute moron."

Will I be detained? Being detained and having my name and address recorded for engaging in this kind of speech would clearly be violative of my First Amendment rights.
PTravel is online now  
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Closed Thread
Thread Tools
Search Thread
Go to Top
Forum Jump
Contact Us - FlyerTalk - Archive - Top