FRA-TLV going from L/H to S/H - How do you feel about it? [merged]
May 9, 2017, 3:24 am
#616
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: TLV
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Personally I think that is looking at it the wrong way. TK has 8 flights a day from TLV to IST that are always full. That's a lot of passengers flying TK that would have otherwise been flying LH if LH hadn't lowered the number of seats on their flights into TLV.
May 9, 2017, 3:34 am
#617
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
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I remember the old days of A340 from MUC and 747 from FRA nach TelAviveeee They are long gone and so are the days of flying LH to TLV Immer Swiss per ani/me
May 11, 2017, 4:54 pm
#618
Join Date: Aug 2005
Programs: UA*G(1K), PC Diamond Amb, Marriott Titanium, Accor Platinum
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Of course, people who used to buy a business class ticket and upon boarding were asking the flight attendants where the business class section was located, will have dumped LH by now.
HTB.
May 12, 2017, 1:18 am
#619
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HaMerkaz/Exit 145
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Posts: 13,167
I don't think LH has considerably lowered the number of seats. AFAIR the A32x with compressed economy seating is not too far off from the 747 or 340 with reasonable seating arrangements.
Of course, people who used to buy a business class ticket and upon boarding were asking the flight attendants where the business class section was located, will have dumped LH by now.
HTB.
Of course, people who used to buy a business class ticket and upon boarding were asking the flight attendants where the business class section was located, will have dumped LH by now.
HTB.
May 12, 2017, 3:31 am
#620
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,171
LH group most certainly retained the market share at the margin they would like to have. Also note that LH earns along when UA or AC fly directly to TLV under the A+ ATI revenue sharing agreement.
LH had no problems in recent years sending widebodies to existing destinations in the 1800-2400 miles radius when the margin is good.
LH had no problems in recent years sending widebodies to existing destinations in the 1800-2400 miles radius when the margin is good.
May 12, 2017, 5:39 am
#622
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
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Posts: 48,171
UA/LH even revenue share on US-India, a sample look at the fares LH & UA have filed for NYC-TLV is a clear hint:
Code:
12MAY17**12MAY17/NYCTLV/NSP;AT/TPM 5659/MPM 6812 LN FARE BASIS OW USD RT PEN DATES DAYS AP MIN MAX AL R 01+P6NC50E 2355 NRF - - +50+SU 12M UA R 02+P6NC50E 2355 NRF - - +50+SU 12M LH R 03+ZNC21E 2427 NRF - - +21+SU 12M UA R 04+ZNC21E 2427 NRF - - +21+SU 12M LH R 05+ZRC1E 2920 + - - + 1+SU 12M UA R 06+ZRC1E 2920 + - - + 1+SU 12M LH R 07+DNC10E 3920 NRF - - +10+SU 12M UA R 08+DNC10E 3920 NRF - - +10+SU 12M LH R 09+DRC1E 4279 + - - + 1+SU 12M LH R 10+DRC1E 4279 + - - + 1+SU 12M UA R 11+CFF0E 5509 - - - + + - - UA R 12+CFF0E 5509 - - - + + - - LH R 13+JFF21E 6679 - - - +21+ - - UA R 14+JFF21E 6679 - - - +21+ - - LH R 15+JKFFOE 3825 7650 - S14JUN - +14+ - - UA R 16+JKFFOE 3825 7650 - S14JUN - +14+ - - LH R 17+JR2E 7979 - - - + - - - LH R
May 12, 2017, 6:30 am
#623
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: TLV
Programs: UA Platinum, Avis Chairman, Marriott Gold, Hilton Gold, GA Pilot
Posts: 3,225
LH group most certainly retained the market share at the margin they would like to have. Also note that LH earns along when UA or AC fly directly to TLV under the A+ ATI revenue sharing agreement.
LH had no problems in recent years sending widebodies to existing destinations in the 1800-2400 miles radius when the margin is good.
LH had no problems in recent years sending widebodies to existing destinations in the 1800-2400 miles radius when the margin is good.
The real problem is lack of competition on the routes to FRA and MUC. Once Easyjet or Ryanair start flying to those cities and more, I bet LH will suddenly take notice.
May 12, 2017, 7:09 am
#624
FlyerTalk Evangelist
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Maybe but BA went back to widebodies to TLV with real business class (and even their narrowbodies had real business class. Even TK has real business class on their narrowbodies and flies an A330 to TLV.
The real problem is lack of competition on the routes to FRA and MUC. Once Easyjet or Ryanair start flying to those cities and more, I bet LH will suddenly take notice.
The real problem is lack of competition on the routes to FRA and MUC. Once Easyjet or Ryanair start flying to those cities and more, I bet LH will suddenly take notice.
May 12, 2017, 7:17 am
#625
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,171
Code:
TN10JULMUCTLV ** AMADEUS TIMETABLE - TN ** TLV TEL AVIV YAFO.IL 10JUL17 17JUL17 1 HV9351 1 MUC 1 TLV 3 0635 1120 0 08MAY17 23OCT17 73W 3:45 2 HV9351 35 MUC 1 TLV 3 0645 1130 0 29MAR17 27OCT17 73W 3:45 3 IZ 442 2 MUC 1 TLV 3 0905 1345 0 11JUL17 22AUG17 E95 3:40 4 IZ 442 6 MUC 1 TLV 3 1010 1450 0 15JUL17 15JUL17 E90 3:40 5 LY 354 57 MUC 1 TLV 3 1020 1510 0 09JUL17 27AUG17 739 3:50 6 LY 354 1234 MUC 1 TLV 3 1020 1510 0 05JUL17 16AUG17 738 3:50 7 LH 688 X25 MUC 2 TLV 3 1205 1640 0 26JUN17 28SEP17 321 3:35 8 C6H 262 2 MUC 1 TLV 3 1300 1745 0 20JUN17 05SEP17 320 3:45 9 C6H 264 3 MUC 1 TLV 3 1300 1745 0 14JUN17 18OCT17 320 3:45 10 LY 352 4 MUC 1 TLV 3 2210 0305+1 0 22JUN17 20JUL17 739 3:55 11 LY 352 1237 MUC 1 TLV 3 2210 0305+1 0 21JUN17 18JUL17 738 3:55 12 LH 680 X13 MUC 2 TLV 3 2300 0335+1 0 01JUN17 28SEP17 321 3:35
May 12, 2017, 10:43 am
#626
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: TLV
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Posts: 3,225
Hmm... I see plenty of competition in MUC:
Code:
TN10JULMUCTLV ** AMADEUS TIMETABLE - TN ** TLV TEL AVIV YAFO.IL 10JUL17 17JUL17 1 HV9351 1 MUC 1 TLV 3 0635 1120 0 08MAY17 23OCT17 73W 3:45 2 HV9351 35 MUC 1 TLV 3 0645 1130 0 29MAR17 27OCT17 73W 3:45 3 IZ 442 2 MUC 1 TLV 3 0905 1345 0 11JUL17 22AUG17 E95 3:40 4 IZ 442 6 MUC 1 TLV 3 1010 1450 0 15JUL17 15JUL17 E90 3:40 5 LY 354 57 MUC 1 TLV 3 1020 1510 0 09JUL17 27AUG17 739 3:50 6 LY 354 1234 MUC 1 TLV 3 1020 1510 0 05JUL17 16AUG17 738 3:50 7 LH 688 X25 MUC 2 TLV 3 1205 1640 0 26JUN17 28SEP17 321 3:35 8 C6H 262 2 MUC 1 TLV 3 1300 1745 0 20JUN17 05SEP17 320 3:45 9 C6H 264 3 MUC 1 TLV 3 1300 1745 0 14JUN17 18OCT17 320 3:45 10 LY 352 4 MUC 1 TLV 3 2210 0305+1 0 22JUN17 20JUL17 739 3:55 11 LY 352 1237 MUC 1 TLV 3 2210 0305+1 0 21JUN17 18JUL17 738 3:55 12 LH 680 X13 MUC 2 TLV 3 2300 0335+1 0 01JUN17 28SEP17 321 3:35
Feb 7, 2021, 5:56 am
#627
Join Date: Jan 2007
Programs: LH SENATOR
Posts: 1,040
Of course only relevant when passnger traffic will pick up again but with building up it's route network again almost from scratch once demand goes up LH and LX should seriously consider to offer again a Long Haul product on all it's flights to TLV. Now even AF will introduce A333 / A359's to TLV after serving this roue for many years with A32S, hence with all the competition I hope LH group will not jepordize i's strong position in TLV by not offering a decent product to TLV going forward.
Feb 7, 2021, 9:48 am
#628
Moderator: SAS
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Posts: 3,152
Of course only relevant when passnger traffic will pick up again but with building up it's route network again almost from scratch once demand goes up LH and LX should seriously consider to offer again a Long Haul product on all it's flights to TLV. Now even AF will introduce A333 / A359's to TLV after serving this roue for many years with A32S, hence with all the competition I hope LH group will not jepordize i's strong position in TLV by not offering a decent product to TLV going forward.
Maybe if they order A321XLRs they could add these routes to be served by this product in addition to to some medium haul expansions
Could make sense to not only operate an insignificant subfleet.
Feb 7, 2021, 10:12 am
#629
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: NYC -- UA 1K; SPG Platinum; HH Diamond.
Posts: 2,920
I suspect that LH was/is better off economically offering its short haul fleet with fake business class on this route and that it wouldn't change things on its own volition. One can only hope that competition from AF and maybe others will lead LH to change its ways. We'll see.
Feb 7, 2021, 11:54 pm
#630
Moderator: Lufthansa Miles & More, India based airlines, India, External Miles & Points Resources
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MUC
Programs: LH SEN
Posts: 48,171
No chance.
The widebody fleet that will come out of the pandemic will be almost half or 60% of the 2019 size. They will need every one of those on the loghaul routes to offer a daily service to the major destinations (15 in NAFTA, 3 in S.Am, 2 SEA, 4-5 in China, 4 E. Asia, 3 India, 5-6 Africa etc). There is no spare capacity to fly widebodies around to short haul destinations.
The widebody fleet that will come out of the pandemic will be almost half or 60% of the 2019 size. They will need every one of those on the loghaul routes to offer a daily service to the major destinations (15 in NAFTA, 3 in S.Am, 2 SEA, 4-5 in China, 4 E. Asia, 3 India, 5-6 Africa etc). There is no spare capacity to fly widebodies around to short haul destinations.