Last edit by: TWAforever
DL/KE current flights between ICN and North America:
Update from Delta News Hub (28MARCH17):
http://news.delta.com/delta-and-kore...nd-partnership
Will this mean a move from Group 4 partner to Group 1? Delta SkyMiles PR rep says:
"... the details you’re looking for will be figured out further down the road"
Further from the Delta press release on the date of the JV agreement being signed, 6/23/17:
Delta and Korean Air will lay the groundwork for implementing all aspects of the joint venture, subject to regulatory approvals, including:
It cited no date for the enhanced FF benefits to be effective.
New Delta SkyMiles mileage earn chart, including MQMs and MQDs, for Korean Air flights effective May 1, 2018. See posts #566 and #567 for details.
Update from Delta News Hub (28MARCH17):
http://news.delta.com/delta-and-kore...nd-partnership
Will this mean a move from Group 4 partner to Group 1? Delta SkyMiles PR rep says:
"... the details you’re looking for will be figured out further down the road"
Further from the Delta press release on the date of the JV agreement being signed, 6/23/17:
Delta and Korean Air will lay the groundwork for implementing all aspects of the joint venture, subject to regulatory approvals, including:
- Expanded codesharing in the trans-Pacific market
- Joint sales and marketing initiatives in Asia and the United States
- Colocation at key hubs with seamless passenger and baggage transit experience
- Enhanced frequent flyer benefits, providing customers of both airlines the ability to earn and redeem miles on Delta's SkyMiles and Korean Air's SKYPASS programs
- Increased belly cargo cooperation across the trans-Pacific
- Under the agreement, the airlines will also share costs and revenues on flights within the scope of the joint venture as they work to expand service options for travelers.
- Increased belly cargo cooperation across the trans-Pacific
- Enhanced frequent flyer benefits, providing customers of both airlines the ability to earn and redeem miles on Delta's SkyMiles and Korean Air's SKYPASS programs
- Colocation at key hubs with seamless passenger and baggage transit experience
- Joint sales and marketing initiatives in Asia and the United States
It cited no date for the enhanced FF benefits to be effective.
New Delta SkyMiles mileage earn chart, including MQMs and MQDs, for Korean Air flights effective May 1, 2018. See posts #566 and #567 for details.
Joint Venture Between Korean Air and Delta Announced — Effective as of May 1, 2018
#61
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From my point of view a JV between DL and KE is only a positive. Flying through NRT to get elsewhere in Asia is a crap shoot at best, needing to use weak ST partners. Flying through ICN and using KE flights would be a step up.
Last edited by fromYXU; Oct 2, 2014 at 7:21 am
#62
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Sorry if this has already been answered but can Delta turn ICN into there Asia hub and dump NRT altogether, sans N/S flights? In other words, can DL do a complete role reversal between NRT and ICN? That would afford people booking on Delta TONS of more options for connecting into South East Asia, China, Japan, Oceania etc...
#63
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1) Why did you bring up localization in the first place? Do you think it important only in Japan? Or that localizing for Japan = localizing for Asia? How do you choose which locale to localize to when connecting through Japan? Personally, I think localizing is largely irrelevant and that customers for whom this is critical wouldn't fly DL anyway. But you did bring it up, so figured I would respond.
DL can get away with a non-localized product today because they have a hub in NRT and fly a diverse set of pax through it everyday. Turning NRT into an O&D airport means the reliance on Japanese passengers goes UP, not down. It's a simple concept. Still, it's one point among many as to why DL would be placed at a severe disadvantage.
http://www.nippon.com/en/features/h00070/
In 2013, 26% were South Korean, 13% were Chinese, 13% were Taiwanese and 7% were Hong Kongese. Not only that, but the Chinese are the highest spenders. So, your original comment about Japan's tensions with Asian neighbors having an adverse effect on their aviation market is not really valid.
KE is competitive as a single airline, but this is the era of JVs and alliances.
Meanwhile, Korea is a very strong economy, but it is no Japan and certainly is no parallel to Germany. If anything, Japan is the parallel to Germany in Asia for the points in the above paragraph.
#64
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Your data is outdated.
http://www.nippon.com/en/features/h00070/
In 2013, 26% were South Korean, 13% were Chinese, 13% were Taiwanese and 7% were Hong Kongese. Not only that, but the Chinese are the highest spenders. So, your original comment about Japan's tensions with Asian neighbors having an adverse effect on their aviation market is not really valid.
http://www.nippon.com/en/features/h00070/
In 2013, 26% were South Korean, 13% were Chinese, 13% were Taiwanese and 7% were Hong Kongese. Not only that, but the Chinese are the highest spenders. So, your original comment about Japan's tensions with Asian neighbors having an adverse effect on their aviation market is not really valid.
2) Your article does not dispute the above.
3) DL doesn't and shouldn't care how much the Chinese spend when on the ground in Japan.
4) Your own linked article starts off with a discussion about how Japan's tensions with China have depressed demand! Read what you post, it saves embarrassment. Why do you think KE and OZ each serve 20+ cities in China?
5) Even using your numbers, 13% + 13% does not equal a majority or "bulk". Indeed, it only places it even with South Korea.
You know what Korea is a good parallel to? The Netherlands. Larger economy. Strong geographic location for connecting flows. You'll note that AMS works quite well as a connecting hub. And Seoul is a MUCH bigger local market (by GDP) than AMS will ever be to boot.
#65
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Problem is, DL still doesn't have a 'seamless' JV experience on the TATL side. Think about how many issues there are with seat assignments not sticking, EC seats not being available or dropped/lost etc... and then the whole SWU/GUC issues with ticketing difficulties and waitlists. I can't imagine that a KE-JV would make the situation any better.
#66
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Problem is, DL still doesn't have a 'seamless' JV experience on the TATL side. Think about how many issues there are with seat assignments not sticking, EC seats not being available or dropped/lost etc... and then the whole SWU/GUC issues with ticketing difficulties and waitlists. I can't imagine that a KE-JV would make the situation any better.
#67
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And, don't forget, Asiana/OZ is owned by Kumho, which has a lot of other companies. These would never go to KE. OTOH, Samsung seems to like KE (as do some other chaebols), so I don't see much changing of preferred carriers from Korean businesses.
Since this thread began with the rumor (continuing) of a JV between DL and KE, I suspect it is possible (maybe even likely) in the near future. Perhaps DL and KE could work out the bad feelings over ICN-ATL non-stop by alternating flights using each other's metal. KE would give DL at lot of onward Asia destinations. DL could change the SkyMiles program at any time to bring KE flight earnings back up to where they used to be.
As to the NRT/HND issues, while ICN might take some business from either, I suspect there will be a continuing need for TYO-USA at about the current level for some time. ICN is doing a lot to increase their ground products IMHO. I also note that GMP is adding flights, too.
Since this thread began with the rumor (continuing) of a JV between DL and KE, I suspect it is possible (maybe even likely) in the near future. Perhaps DL and KE could work out the bad feelings over ICN-ATL non-stop by alternating flights using each other's metal. KE would give DL at lot of onward Asia destinations. DL could change the SkyMiles program at any time to bring KE flight earnings back up to where they used to be.
As to the NRT/HND issues, while ICN might take some business from either, I suspect there will be a continuing need for TYO-USA at about the current level for some time. ICN is doing a lot to increase their ground products IMHO. I also note that GMP is adding flights, too.
Also, right on that there's going to be a need for TYO-USA flights. I've also seen that GMP has grown substantially in the past 10 years, especially domestically. A lot of this is because of the added flights to Jeju; GMP-CJU is currently the busiest air corridor in the world.
Sorry if this has already been answered but can Delta turn ICN into there Asia hub and dump NRT altogether, sans N/S flights? In other words, can DL do a complete role reversal between NRT and ICN? That would afford people booking on Delta TONS of more options for connecting into South East Asia, China, Japan, Oceania etc...
#68
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Let's not forget that Japan is probably the only country where you automatically earn Gold Medallion for having the Gold DL Amex. Clearly, value is placed on them in some form.
1) No, my data is not outdated. http://www.tourism.jp/en/statistics/
2) Your article does not dispute the above.
3) DL doesn't and shouldn't care how much the Chinese spend when on the ground in Japan.
4) Your own linked article starts off with a discussion about how Japan's tensions with China have depressed demand! Read what you post, it saves embarrassment. Why do you think KE and OZ each serve 20+ cities in China?
5) Even using your numbers, 13% + 13% does not equal a majority or "bulk". Indeed, it only places it even with South Korea.
2) Your article does not dispute the above.
3) DL doesn't and shouldn't care how much the Chinese spend when on the ground in Japan.
4) Your own linked article starts off with a discussion about how Japan's tensions with China have depressed demand! Read what you post, it saves embarrassment. Why do you think KE and OZ each serve 20+ cities in China?
5) Even using your numbers, 13% + 13% does not equal a majority or "bulk". Indeed, it only places it even with South Korea.
2. Missing the point again.
3. This has nothing to do with DL's strategy and more with your statement earlier that there are some countries that, well, ain't Japan's biggest fans? This is hyperbolic at best, untrue at worst, and most of all, seriously irrelevant because...
4. China to Japan tourism demand shot back up to historic highs in less than a year! Your point would only be valid if the numbers never recovered, which shows that Asian political tensions have no long term negative effect on tourism in Japan. There are fluctuations and such things are caused by many factors. You might as well call bad weather, a financial crisis, or a viral outbreak as valid excuses for dehubbing an airport while you're at it.
5. With Hong Kong, the number rises to 33%, which is a majority that continues to rise. You should also consider that South Koreans have visa-free access to Japan, while Mainland Chinese do not.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. My final word on my existing opinion is that accepting the KE JV as the end all be all for DL's Pacific ambitions is short sighted, doesn't really solve any of the lingering deficiencies they've had in Japan, and in the end only serves to reduce their presence in the TYO market without anything special to offer in return that would set them apart from competitors. The KE JV is the best DL can settle for after they failed to bring JAL onto their side, and I find it only a partial solution.
Last edited by FireEmblemPride; Oct 2, 2014 at 8:53 am
#69
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And just as AMS cannot replace LHR or CDG by itself for any alliance, ICN is a fantastic hub that cannot replace NRT+HND on its own.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. My final word on my existing opinion is that accepting the KE JV as the end all be all for DL's Pacific ambitions is short sighted, doesn't really solve any of the lingering deficiencies they've had in Japan, and in the end only serves to reduce their presence in the TYO market without anything special to offer in return that would set them apart from competitors. The KE JV is the best DL can settle for after they failed to bring JAL onto their side, and I find it only a partial solution.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. My final word on my existing opinion is that accepting the KE JV as the end all be all for DL's Pacific ambitions is short sighted, doesn't really solve any of the lingering deficiencies they've had in Japan, and in the end only serves to reduce their presence in the TYO market without anything special to offer in return that would set them apart from competitors. The KE JV is the best DL can settle for after they failed to bring JAL onto their side, and I find it only a partial solution.
If I'm not mistaken, ST does not have a good way to connect passengers from the US to domestic Japanese destinations at NRT nor does it have a good partner. I think the NRT hub is mainly to connect passengers to other destinations in Asia rather than to domestic destinations in Japan. If negotiations with Japan go well on HND, I suppose this could change but DL would still need JAL or ANA as a partner to really take advantage of domestic connections in Japan.
I think DL has made a decision that this is highly unlikely given that ANA is in *A and JAL is now in OW. The next best option for DL is to go with KE. KE flies to almost all of the Japanese cities from ICN that ANA/JAL fly to from NRT .
By moving the hub from NRT to ICN, this solves the issue of getting passengers to other Japanese cities outside of TYO. Additionally, I think ICN is less prone to delays than NRT because of NRT's failure to be able to add the runways necessary. I'm not too knowledgeable on this but it's just my opinion.
#70
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My final word on my existing opinion is that accepting the KE JV as the end all be all for DL's Pacific ambitions is short sighted, doesn't really solve any of the lingering deficiencies they've had in Japan, and in the end only serves to reduce their presence in the TYO market without anything special to offer in return that would set them apart from competitors. The KE JV is the best DL can settle for after they failed to bring JAL onto their side, and I find it only a partial solution.
2. How would finally getting an Asian JV (with a partner that offers significantly more intra-Asia service than either JL or NH) not offer anything special and set them apart from competitors? The only customer group that might be adversely affected would be US-Japan O&D, but apart from some downgauging the only outright loss of service would likely be PDX-NRT, which would have a decent shot of being replaced by PDX-ICN.
#71
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#72
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Sorry if this has already been answered but can Delta turn ICN into there Asia hub and dump NRT altogether, sans N/S flights? In other words, can DL do a complete role reversal between NRT and ICN? That would afford people booking on Delta TONS of more options for connecting into South East Asia, China, Japan, Oceania etc...
Delta was desperate to take JAL out of Oneworld for two reasons:
1. It would have killed AA's chances of ever competing to those distant Asian cities that are uneconomical to serve nonstop from the USA (SIN, BKK, MNL, etc); and
2. It would have permitted DL to draw down the interport flying even faster and letting JAL handle the NRT-SIN/BKK/MNL traffic.
Had DL been successful, DL would have eliminated a competitor (JAL) and would have neutered another (AA).
But, alas, there are three major alliance airlines in the USA and only two major full-service airlines in Japan, meaning someone would be the odd man out. That's Delta. Delta is still huge in the USA-Japan O&D market.
So, yes, if DL and KE form a joint venture, then ICN would be the connecting point for USA-Asian traffic where DL doesn't fly nonstop from the USA (SIN, BKK, MNL, etc). KE metal would fly the ICN-SIN/BKK/MNL flights, saving DL plenty of money.
Currently, Delta flies more seats in and out of Japan than is necessary for the local traffic (the USA-Japan O&D market). If DL and KE get together, then DL would simply downgauge some of its flights between the USA and NRT to take those connecting seats out of the market. Wouldn't harm DL, since those connecting seats would be flown to/from ICN instead.
#73
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LH competes just fine because Germany is also a well-developed market, with a large and wealthy demographic, is the biggest economy in Europe, and is the most stable there overall (and in the whole world in fact). France and the UK could only dream of having an economy as resilient as Germany's.
Meanwhile, Korea is a very strong economy, but it is no Japan and certainly is no parallel to Germany. If anything, Japan is the parallel to Germany in Asia for the points in the above paragraph.
Meanwhile, Korea is a very strong economy, but it is no Japan and certainly is no parallel to Germany. If anything, Japan is the parallel to Germany in Asia for the points in the above paragraph.
I do hope this JV goes through.
#74
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Plus, what happened to all the NRT slots that PMNW had? They served many more intraAsia destinations than DL does and which TPAC service to some "new" DL habs was added, frequencies from at least MSP and DTW are reduced from what they had been--i.e., MSP-NRT is now daily but for a long time PMNW flew it twice daily, at least in high season.
#75
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If Delta and KE can get together and form a joint venture (and get US gov't antitrust immunity), then DL and KE would cooperate at ICN just like AA does with JAL at NRT and just like UA does with ANA at NRT. And DL could still collect revenue for passengers flying USA-SIN/BKK/MNL, albeit on KE metal from ICN.
Delta was desperate to take JAL out of Oneworld for two reasons:
1. It would have killed AA's chances of ever competing to those distant Asian cities that are uneconomical to serve nonstop from the USA (SIN, BKK, MNL, etc); and
2. It would have permitted DL to draw down the interport flying even faster and letting JAL handle the NRT-SIN/BKK/MNL traffic.
Had DL been successful, DL would have eliminated a competitor (JAL) and would have neutered another (AA).
Delta was desperate to take JAL out of Oneworld for two reasons:
1. It would have killed AA's chances of ever competing to those distant Asian cities that are uneconomical to serve nonstop from the USA (SIN, BKK, MNL, etc); and
2. It would have permitted DL to draw down the interport flying even faster and letting JAL handle the NRT-SIN/BKK/MNL traffic.
Had DL been successful, DL would have eliminated a competitor (JAL) and would have neutered another (AA).
2. PMNW cooperated with JAL (and QF) for its circle pacific fares and routings; I think there was additional cooperation around 2000.
In the meantime, JAL has been reducing its route network and otherwise following somewhat of a retrenchment strategy with premium cabin offerings being reduced or eliminated on some routes. We see nice lounges and good service, but behind that is a troubled airline.
Korea is top 15 in the world by GDP, and a little over a third the size of Germany's GDP. One big difference though is that for airport traffic, Seoul is the end all be all for business in Korea, while for Germany it is split between various airports (Frankfurt, Munich, Berlin, Dusseldorf, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Cologne etc.). So Seoul is a very strong airport in terms of O&D.
I do hope this JV goes through.
I do hope this JV goes through.