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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN or Signature) [2017>]

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Old Jan 16, 2017, 10:23 am
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What is EMV?
EMV is a standard for smart (or integrated-circuit, or chip) cards and the devices that can accept them. The standards are maintained by EMVCo and based on ISO 7816 (or ISO 14443 for contactless).

These cards come in two flavours: contact and contactless. Examples below:
----------------------------------------------------------

Notice the contactless indicator on the right-hand side (it looks like a sideways Wi-Fi symbol). It may also be found on the back of the card (for example, on the back of the new Costco credit card).


Where can I get a chip card?

Hawaiian717 operates a website with crowd-sourced information about various cards. You can adjust the search parameters to see cards with contactless, have PIN-primary authentication, etc.

Which businesses accept chip cards?

tmiw operates a website, also primarily crowd-sourced, that tracks chip-enabled merchants on a map. You can see if a merchant supports PIN, contactless, Quick Chip, et al.

Why doesn't my chip card ask for a PIN?

This is likely because you have a signature-preferring card. At this time, PIN-preferring cards issued in the US are rare. Not many financial institutions offer them; most of them instead provide Chip-and-Signature cards, which are programmed to prefer signature over PIN, if the card supports PIN at all.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?

To the cardholder, the only major difference is how they authenticate themselves at the point of sale. The cardholder inserts their card as normal; instead of signing a screen or receipt, they will be asked to enter their PIN on the keypad.

[spoiler]

A few financial institutions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees.

Why no PIN? (cont.)
American debit cards are unique because they are psuedo-PIN-preferring cards. which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions.

What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN? (cont.)

Most cards issued in the US are programmed to prefer signature, so save very few instances, they will prompt for a signature (unless the merchant sets a signature waiver). A PIN may be necessary in countries with mostly PIN-preferring cards when using unattended terminals (such as pay-at-the-pump or mass transit). If the card has a PIN for backup verification or ATMs, then that PIN should work. Otherwise, the card will be rejected. If the card is rejected, then either a.) the transaction must be performed by an attendant or b.) an alternative payment method will be required.

Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM (Cardholder Verification Method) as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).

One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.

I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.

If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.


I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.


There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.

In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.

The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:

You are worried about this happening, right?

You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:

With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.

Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote its capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:

Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.

Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.

Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.

In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.

In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.


BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.

However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.

But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.

1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?

2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.

3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?

4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.

5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.

6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?

But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.

[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]

You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.

And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!


So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.

And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.

https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud

These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.


But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s, and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the de-facto global standard of payments.

But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.

Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.


I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?

Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.

If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.

And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.

In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.


But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.

If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.

The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
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USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN or Signature) [2017>]

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Old Sep 17, 2017, 9:55 pm
  #2551  
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Another contactless failure tonight at a grocery store. They had "IT Retail" branding on their MX915s and after tapping with my phone, it showed a progress bar for a few seconds before timing out. Same thing happened on the second attempt. I paid with cash so I wouldn't hold up the line any further (EMV was enabled but I don't know if it would have worked any better than contactless.)

Anyway, maybe we can add "not reliable enough" to that list too.
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Old Sep 17, 2017, 10:08 pm
  #2552  
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Originally Posted by tmiw
Another contactless failure tonight at a grocery store. They had "IT Retail" branding on their MX915s and after tapping with my phone, it showed a progress bar for a few seconds before timing out. Same thing happened on the second attempt. I paid with cash so I wouldn't hold up the line any further (EMV was enabled but I don't know if it would have worked any better than contactless.)

Anyway, maybe we can add "not reliable enough" to that list too.
Which grocery store was this?

I find near-flawless Contactless support at any grocery store other than Kroger banners and Safeway/Albertsons. Well, WinCo doesn't support it, but they don't even take Credit Cards, so that is not really a big deal.

In NorCal you have various independent grocers and almost all of them support Contactless, then the smaller regional chains Raleys and Save Mart/Lucky/Food Maxx support it too. Trader Joes, Whole Foods, and Sprouts also have a good lot of stores in NorCal and they all support Contactless as well. Also smaller chains in NorCal Nugget, Holiday/Sav-Mor, also all support Contactless.

Was recently up in Western Washington and every other grocery store than Kroger/Safeway/Albertsons up there had flawless Contactless that worked great mostly with Equinox terminals like Walgreens has: Yoke's, Rosauer's, Super 1 Foods, drove by but did not go into a Natural Grocers but know they have Contactless too.
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Old Sep 17, 2017, 10:14 pm
  #2553  
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Originally Posted by storewanderer
Which grocery store was this?
One of the Asian grocery stores by my house. It's not a huge loss since it's pretty run down inside and has a $5 minimum, but still.

Also, I've had contactless fail at Whole Foods before so it's not 100% reliable even at the well-known brands. I don't recall ever having any problems at Trader Joe's, Sprouts or Grocery Outlet, though, so there's that.
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Old Sep 17, 2017, 10:29 pm
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Originally Posted by tmiw
Another contactless failure tonight at a grocery store. They had "IT Retail" branding on their MX915s and after tapping with my phone, it showed a progress bar for a few seconds before timing out. Same thing happened on the second attempt. I paid with cash so I wouldn't hold up the line any further (EMV was enabled but I don't know if it would have worked any better than contactless.)

Anyway, maybe we can add "not reliable enough" to that list too.
I’ve had trouble at other IT Retail Asian stores with contactless too!! The only IT RETAIL store that worked fine for me is Natural Grocers! I think it was a botched software update as it used to work fine at the Asian stores. Natural grocers works but still finicky there. Maybe IT RETAIL just sucks.

EMV worked fine in all cases, IT Retail makes a lot of the “Asian compliant POS software” allowing Chinese characters etc. they also handle Natrual grocers, and Vitamin shoppe POS systems. They’re actually a fork of another Asian grocery store POS system, RSP MARKET MASTER, who went belly up.

IT Retail uses the NCR payment gateway, so no different than say the Super Valu Setup in terms of payment processing.

For small grocery stores I actually prefer Retalix over ITRETAIL, Retalix for small businesses used to be ISS45, which is also now deprecated, and everyone has moved onto Retalix or ITRETAIL.

For small Asian stores I prefer to deploy PCAMERICA, which has been the most reliable.

Last edited by RedLight2015; Sep 17, 2017 at 10:40 pm
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Old Sep 17, 2017, 10:30 pm
  #2555  
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Originally Posted by tmiw
One of the Asian grocery stores by my house. It's not a huge loss since it's pretty run down inside and has a $5 minimum, but still.

Also, I've had contactless fail at Whole Foods before so it's not 100% reliable even at the well-known brands. I don't recall ever having any problems at Trader Joe's, Sprouts or Grocery Outlet, though, so there's that.
Might be a situation where MSD Contactless is not processing through EMV anymore. Sounds like they do not use one of the more common grocery store cash registers.
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Old Sep 18, 2017, 12:36 am
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Originally Posted by Tyler2017
Are there any other countries that use EMV but doesn't have widespread contactless use and/or contactless credit cards available? From what I have noticed, I believe South Korea and Mexico belong in this category.
Japan
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Old Sep 18, 2017, 1:35 am
  #2557  
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Originally Posted by RedLight2015
EMV worked fine in all cases, IT Retail makes a lot of the “Asian compliant POS software” allowing Chinese characters etc. they also handle Natrual grocers, and Vitamin shoppe POS systems. They’re actually a fork of another Asian grocery store POS system, RSP MARKET MASTER, who went belly up.

IT Retail uses the NCR payment gateway, so no different than say the Super Valu Setup in terms of payment processing.
Interesting. I wonder why Vitamin Shoppe has no contactless then (at least based on previous reports, anyway).
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Old Sep 18, 2017, 8:16 am
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Originally Posted by AllieKat
Japan
Japan has EMV chips but a lot of places are still swipe. More so than the US!
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Old Sep 18, 2017, 10:49 am
  #2559  
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Originally Posted by tmiw
Interesting. I wonder why Vitamin Shoppe has no contactless then (at least based on previous reports, anyway).
I use them somewhat regularly. They enabled the EMV slots with one day's notice not that long ago. Somehow, I get the impression that the management isn't even aware contactless exists as an option.
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Old Sep 18, 2017, 5:02 pm
  #2560  
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Originally Posted by Points Scrounger
I use them somewhat regularly. They enabled the EMV slots with one day's notice not that long ago. Somehow, I get the impression that the management isn't even aware contactless exists as an option.
That seems like a lot of smaller businesses, unfortunately. At least some/most of them have heard of Apple Pay though.
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Old Sep 21, 2017, 1:05 am
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Nobody ever seems to use Apple Pay at contactless enabled merchants (at least from what I've seen). Apple should pump more advertising money into Apple Pay commercials.
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Old Sep 21, 2017, 4:44 am
  #2562  
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Originally Posted by mikesyr18
Nobody ever seems to use Apple Pay at contactless enabled merchants (at least from what I've seen). Apple should pump more advertising money into Apple Pay commercials.
I've seen people pay with their mobile devices a few times. Definitely nowhere near the majority of transactions though.
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Old Sep 21, 2017, 10:20 am
  #2563  
 
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Originally Posted by dmapr
Update on using the First Tech card in a ticket kiosk in Copenhagen. This time it was at the airport, not at the central train station like the last time and it worked like a charm. So I don't know if the last time was a fluke and it failed to read the chip or if the terminals are coded differently. I did not try to use a signature preferring card this time as I was in a hurry to catch the bus.
My guess is that when chip-and-pin doesn't work, yet the card seems to be working at other merchants and/or other terminals of the same merchant, it probably has something to do with the terminal. I used my First Tech card extensively in Europe recently, and at one shop I tried 3 times at one terminal and it kept returning an error. Then the clerk had an "aha moment" and said, wait, it's 5:00, sometimes terminals go down briefly at this time (due to some weird resetting procedure having to do with the shift change? who knows). Anyway, he found another terminal and it worked like a charm the first time.

I must say, I'm very pleased with the First Tech card. Having a chip-and-pin that works at unmanned kiosks saved us a LOT of time. At one point I bought train tickets at a small station in Italy, noting that there was a short line at the counter (staffed by one clerk). But the customer was doing something complicated and was still standing there 15 minutes later, as the line grew behind him. Meanwhile, I had my tickets in hand because I was able to use the automat.

Similarly at a museum where there was a LONG line for the ticket counter, but a nonexistent line for the 5 or 10 ticket automats - which only accepted PIN cards, per the sign directing non-PIN card holders to the ticket counters.

And so on.
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Old Sep 21, 2017, 11:57 am
  #2564  
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So, do these PIN-only terminals specifically refuse both signature and No CVM as possibilities?
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Old Sep 21, 2017, 12:03 pm
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Originally Posted by Points Scrounger
So, do these PIN-only terminals specifically refuse both signature and No CVM as possibilities?
The thing I wonder is that they had to have been programmed this way. They’re the same Ingenico iUC or Verifone unattended terminals we have attached to new train ticket kiosks etc here in the US! They’re just literally programmed to be crappy!
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