Sep 20, 2013, 11:40 am
Last edit by: philemer
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-card-programs/1739359-2016-onward-usa-emv-cards-availability-q-chip-pin-signature.html
EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi
What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:
Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1
SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface
Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.
Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.
Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.
If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.
Thanks for helping out!
As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.
Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.
What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.
Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.
Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).
The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.
One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.
I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.
If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.
Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.
As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.
I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)
I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.
In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.
The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:
You are worried about this happening, right?
You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:
With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.
Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:
Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.
Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.
Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.
In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.
In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.
BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.
However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.
But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.
1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?
2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.
3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?
4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.
5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.
6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?
But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.
[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]
You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.
And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!
So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.
And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.
https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud
These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.
But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.
But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.
Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.
I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?
Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.
If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.
And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.
In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.
But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.
If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.
The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi
What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:
Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1
SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface
Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.
Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.
Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.
If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.
Thanks for helping out!
As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.
Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.
What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.
Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.
Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).
The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.
One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.
I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.
If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.
Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.
As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.
I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)
I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.
In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.
The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:
You are worried about this happening, right?
You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:
With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.
Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:
Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.
Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.
Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.
In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.
In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.
BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.
However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.
But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.
1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?
2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.
3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?
4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.
5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.
6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?
But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.
[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]
You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.
And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!
So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.
And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.
https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud
These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.
But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.
But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.
Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.
I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?
Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.
If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.
And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.
In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.
But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.
If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.
The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]
Sep 29, 2012, 6:29 am
#436
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
I'm not trying to argue, just discuss.
Taxis are where I regularly encounter imprint machines in the US, and most shops seem to have one as a backup in case their credit card terminal goes down. I had to write up my own slip and imprint my own card at a Steak and Shake a few years ago because nobody there knew how to do it and their system was down.
They're also critical in areas like where I live in florida for whenever there is a hurricane.
The reason why copying the account number down instead of imprinting isn't preferred is that the imprint proves the presence of the card. Card present transactions (mag swipe, imprint, etc.) incur lower merchant fees than card not present transactions due to the lower risk of fraud when the card is physically present.
You'd think that services like Square would be more common with taxis rather than imprints.
Taxis are where I regularly encounter imprint machines in the US, and most shops seem to have one as a backup in case their credit card terminal goes down. I had to write up my own slip and imprint my own card at a Steak and Shake a few years ago because nobody there knew how to do it and their system was down.
They're also critical in areas like where I live in florida for whenever there is a hurricane.
The reason why copying the account number down instead of imprinting isn't preferred is that the imprint proves the presence of the card. Card present transactions (mag swipe, imprint, etc.) incur lower merchant fees than card not present transactions due to the lower risk of fraud when the card is physically present.
You'd think that services like Square would be more common with taxis rather than imprints.
Sep 30, 2012, 12:32 am
#437
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
Requires a smartphone problem
A. Do you give every cabbie a smartphone so transactions by Square can be done (additional cost of iPhones per every taxi cab, plus monthly fees on each and everyone of them)
or
B. Do you let the cabbie use his own personal smartphone to do Square transactions and put good faith into cabbies that they will not do something "fishy" (skimming) with it?
or
C. Just stick with the imprinter?
An independent cabbie where he owns his own vehicle and he himself is the driver/CEO of the company, Square might make sense. But most cabbies are just employees for a cab company. When it comes to that, using Square isn't just up there yet.
Square app itself (at least up to recently) wasn't cut out to do dynamic pricing models problem
The Square app requires one to have a single price for each one item, which is more cut out for restaurants and coffee shops (i.e.: $X for a brownie, $X for a latte etc.). Basically a latte is always going to be $X whether you buy it on Monday or Saturday, whether it's 7AM or 8PM.
OTOH, taxi cabs pricing models are highly dynamic: they are on a meter based system where it's "$X for the first mile, $X each quarter mile thereafter, $X for traffic stops, X% upcharge during late evening hours, etc.). The price to go from Manhattan to JFK on cab, pretty much depends on where the cabbie picks up the passenger, what route the cabbie takes, traffic congestion, and time of day. Since pricing is so dynamic, a simple "one price per item" Square app doesn't really cut it. This is also one of the reasons why many cab companies had so much difficulty in doing credit card payments to begin with.
Square is good for fixed pricing models, which pretty much is over 99% of how businesses operate in the US. Dynamic pricing models, Square wasn't capable of doing that until pretty much this year: http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0...-taxi-rollout/
We'll see if Square will change things for cabs.
Last edited by kebosabi; Oct 1, 2012 at 9:46 am
Sep 30, 2012, 9:20 am
#438
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MLB, MCO
Programs: Delta Plat, IHG Plat, Marriott Silver
Posts: 1,315
kebosabe,
Personally, I'd trust a cab driver with Square and his personal smartphone over imprints. With imprints, he has a physical record of my card number.
I'm not sure i follow about Square being for fixed price things. To use it, you type in an amount and swipe the card. Wouldn't the cab driver just type in the meter fare? It even has an option to allow customers to add a tip to the transaction before they sign with their fingers on the screen. The link you sent was to a cool new piece of software that integrates in with the meter. It looks nifty but isn't necessary.
I didn't consider the cost of the data plans or devices. I can see how a cab company with a fleet of vehicles may not want to spend the money on giving every vehicle a cell phone with a data plan.
Personally, I'd trust a cab driver with Square and his personal smartphone over imprints. With imprints, he has a physical record of my card number.
I'm not sure i follow about Square being for fixed price things. To use it, you type in an amount and swipe the card. Wouldn't the cab driver just type in the meter fare? It even has an option to allow customers to add a tip to the transaction before they sign with their fingers on the screen. The link you sent was to a cool new piece of software that integrates in with the meter. It looks nifty but isn't necessary.
I didn't consider the cost of the data plans or devices. I can see how a cab company with a fleet of vehicles may not want to spend the money on giving every vehicle a cell phone with a data plan.
Sep 30, 2012, 4:04 pm
#439
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
Well, fixed vs dynamic pricing is something that is worth a different discussion.
However, the general consensus seems to be that there are better technologies suitable for those that have dynamic pricing models: NFC contactless chip payments. http://www.nfcrumors.com/01-04-2012/...ltiple-cities/
Especially in a fast paced environment along with a business model where variable pricing makes sense such as using taxi cabs, toll roads, or even using mass transit, NFC enables to do things really fast with a simple touch-and-go without the need of stopping, typing it in, swiping/PIN entry, signing it, etc.
If you look at how other countries around the world (Europe, Canada, Asia etc.) have moved onto using fast and quick tap-and-go products for things like cabs, toll roads, mass transit instead of doing the Square/iZettle option, there's several things in common:
1. They are primarily used in a fast paced environment (less than 0.5 sec to tap-and-go as opposed to typing an amount, swiping/PIN entry, signing)
2. They are primarily used where pricing models are variable and dynamic
A good example of how this is used in the US are highways where we have those ETC toll tags. It's a fast pace environment and pricing is dynamic. No need to stop, no need to wait, no need to swipe or sign. You just pass on right through and the amount is deducted right from your linked checking account on your toll tag depending on distance traveled.
Considering that taxi cabs are a privatized form of mass transit (in a way), it is also a fast-paced environment (especially in NYC) where variable pricing is the norm. Majority of cab company owners seem to look it that way and are (at least that's the vibe I got from my cab owner friend) interested in something like a tap-and-go product instead of the swiper:
1. Tap-in when you get on the cab (record where your starting point is; like the taxi cab's odometer reading or so)
2. Tap-off when you get off the cab (taxi cab odometer reading of your destination)
3. Automatically deducts the amount from your credit card or checking account based on distance traveled from odometer data points 2 and 1 (or time of day if applicable)
4. Tip the cabbie with a $5 bill
This is a lot faster than the current solution where cabbie has to put in the fare meter amount into the device, swipe the thing, if debit card choose debit option and have passenger enter PIN, if not choose credit and wait for it to print out a receipt (if cell phone reception is available to begin with), hand over pen to sign it and write in a tip amount, and wait for funds to clear. The whole process can take up to a minute or more which adds up to a lot of downtime, and in particularly pain-in-the-butt parking enforcement cities like NYC where everyone is in a hurry, can be enough to get a parking ticket (added cost for cab companies) for not moving the vehicle from the curbside fast enough.
For cabs the faster the payment can be done, the better. This is why it was preferred to just hand over cash and say "keep the change" because it's fast. Credit and debit card in its magnetic stripe form for cabs, takes too much time and that's not even counting the arguing time to have the cabbie take the credit card (if you've been to NY, you'd know this
)
NFC tap-and-go however, would have best of both worlds: simple, immediate and just as fast as using cash: just tap-in when entering the cab, tap-off at your destination and give $5 bill as tip to cabbie.
Too bad not a lot of card companies incorporate the NFC chip in their cards either nor are there that many smartphones that have the NFC chip for the US market yet (iPhone5 was rumored to have it but it wasn't).
But then again, it's straying OT from the EMV debate so I'll leave it as it is.
However, the general consensus seems to be that there are better technologies suitable for those that have dynamic pricing models: NFC contactless chip payments. http://www.nfcrumors.com/01-04-2012/...ltiple-cities/
Especially in a fast paced environment along with a business model where variable pricing makes sense such as using taxi cabs, toll roads, or even using mass transit, NFC enables to do things really fast with a simple touch-and-go without the need of stopping, typing it in, swiping/PIN entry, signing it, etc.
If you look at how other countries around the world (Europe, Canada, Asia etc.) have moved onto using fast and quick tap-and-go products for things like cabs, toll roads, mass transit instead of doing the Square/iZettle option, there's several things in common:
1. They are primarily used in a fast paced environment (less than 0.5 sec to tap-and-go as opposed to typing an amount, swiping/PIN entry, signing)
2. They are primarily used where pricing models are variable and dynamic
A good example of how this is used in the US are highways where we have those ETC toll tags. It's a fast pace environment and pricing is dynamic. No need to stop, no need to wait, no need to swipe or sign. You just pass on right through and the amount is deducted right from your linked checking account on your toll tag depending on distance traveled.
Considering that taxi cabs are a privatized form of mass transit (in a way), it is also a fast-paced environment (especially in NYC) where variable pricing is the norm. Majority of cab company owners seem to look it that way and are (at least that's the vibe I got from my cab owner friend) interested in something like a tap-and-go product instead of the swiper:
1. Tap-in when you get on the cab (record where your starting point is; like the taxi cab's odometer reading or so)
2. Tap-off when you get off the cab (taxi cab odometer reading of your destination)
3. Automatically deducts the amount from your credit card or checking account based on distance traveled from odometer data points 2 and 1 (or time of day if applicable)
4. Tip the cabbie with a $5 bill
This is a lot faster than the current solution where cabbie has to put in the fare meter amount into the device, swipe the thing, if debit card choose debit option and have passenger enter PIN, if not choose credit and wait for it to print out a receipt (if cell phone reception is available to begin with), hand over pen to sign it and write in a tip amount, and wait for funds to clear. The whole process can take up to a minute or more which adds up to a lot of downtime, and in particularly pain-in-the-butt parking enforcement cities like NYC where everyone is in a hurry, can be enough to get a parking ticket (added cost for cab companies) for not moving the vehicle from the curbside fast enough.
For cabs the faster the payment can be done, the better. This is why it was preferred to just hand over cash and say "keep the change" because it's fast. Credit and debit card in its magnetic stripe form for cabs, takes too much time and that's not even counting the arguing time to have the cabbie take the credit card (if you've been to NY, you'd know this
) NFC tap-and-go however, would have best of both worlds: simple, immediate and just as fast as using cash: just tap-in when entering the cab, tap-off at your destination and give $5 bill as tip to cabbie.
Too bad not a lot of card companies incorporate the NFC chip in their cards either nor are there that many smartphones that have the NFC chip for the US market yet (iPhone5 was rumored to have it but it wasn't).
But then again, it's straying OT from the EMV debate so I'll leave it as it is.
Last edited by kebosabi; Oct 1, 2012 at 2:01 pm
Oct 1, 2012, 7:22 pm
#440
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: BOS
Programs: UA 1K, AA GLD
Posts: 237
Just wanted to update those that care about the poor excuse that is US Chip and Signature cards. I went to the UK & Italy with the Chase British Airways card and a Bank of America Travel Rewards Card, along with some other traditional magstripe cards.
I had no problems with chip & signature or magstripe cards with Oystercard machines, restaurants, etc. I might have had issues in British Rail stations but I don't exactly recall (skipped the machines for ticket counter). Most machines seemed to recognize chip and signature. In Italy for the most part I had no issues using these cards at restaurants or shops either. The hardest part TBH was trying to figure out whether the machine wanted you to leave the card in or pull it out immediately. I was quite scared from hearing other's experiences with traditional magstripe cards, so I got chipped cards, but I'm not really convinced that normal magstripe cards wouldn't work. This could be because I was in really touristy areas of course.
The one place where I could not use a chip & signature card at all were every TrenItalia ticket machine I tried from Rome to Genoa. Leaving the card in, swiping like a regular magstripe card, punching in 0000 as the PIN, none of these worked with the chip cards. I'm sure you could go to the manned ticket office but the queues were ridiculous. The only card I had immediately accessible was a prepaid AmEx from a promotion, which worked perfectly fine for numerous purchases of train tickets (from 5-200 EUR) and saved me from digging thru a stack of credit cards and trying to remember which had no FTF, etc.
So bottom line, if you're really concerned carry both chip and magstripe, or budget enough time to be able to figure it out (eg queueing at a manned ticket counter).
I had no problems with chip & signature or magstripe cards with Oystercard machines, restaurants, etc. I might have had issues in British Rail stations but I don't exactly recall (skipped the machines for ticket counter). Most machines seemed to recognize chip and signature. In Italy for the most part I had no issues using these cards at restaurants or shops either. The hardest part TBH was trying to figure out whether the machine wanted you to leave the card in or pull it out immediately. I was quite scared from hearing other's experiences with traditional magstripe cards, so I got chipped cards, but I'm not really convinced that normal magstripe cards wouldn't work. This could be because I was in really touristy areas of course.
The one place where I could not use a chip & signature card at all were every TrenItalia ticket machine I tried from Rome to Genoa. Leaving the card in, swiping like a regular magstripe card, punching in 0000 as the PIN, none of these worked with the chip cards. I'm sure you could go to the manned ticket office but the queues were ridiculous. The only card I had immediately accessible was a prepaid AmEx from a promotion, which worked perfectly fine for numerous purchases of train tickets (from 5-200 EUR) and saved me from digging thru a stack of credit cards and trying to remember which had no FTF, etc.
So bottom line, if you're really concerned carry both chip and magstripe, or budget enough time to be able to figure it out (eg queueing at a manned ticket counter).
Oct 1, 2012, 7:50 pm
#441
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New York
Programs: Cutting down :-(
Posts: 604
Did you try your cash-advance PIN?
Oct 2, 2012, 12:00 am
#442
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Just wanted to update those that care about the poor excuse that is US Chip and Signature cards. I went to the UK & Italy with the Chase British Airways card and a Bank of America Travel Rewards Card, along with some other traditional magstripe cards.
I had no problems with chip & signature or magstripe cards with Oystercard machines, restaurants, etc. I might have had issues in British Rail stations but I don't exactly recall (skipped the machines for ticket counter). Most machines seemed to recognize chip and signature. In Italy for the most part I had no issues using these cards at restaurants or shops either. The hardest part TBH was trying to figure out whether the machine wanted you to leave the card in or pull it out immediately. I was quite scared from hearing other's experiences with traditional magstripe cards, so I got chipped cards, but I'm not really convinced that normal magstripe cards wouldn't work. This could be because I was in really touristy areas of course.
The one place where I could not use a chip & signature card at all were every TrenItalia ticket machine I tried from Rome to Genoa. Leaving the card in, swiping like a regular magstripe card, punching in 0000 as the PIN, none of these worked with the chip cards. I'm sure you could go to the manned ticket office but the queues were ridiculous. The only card I had immediately accessible was a prepaid AmEx from a promotion, which worked perfectly fine for numerous purchases of train tickets (from 5-200 EUR) and saved me from digging thru a stack of credit cards and trying to remember which had no FTF, etc.
So bottom line, if you're really concerned carry both chip and magstripe, or budget enough time to be able to figure it out (eg queueing at a manned ticket counter).
I had no problems with chip & signature or magstripe cards with Oystercard machines, restaurants, etc. I might have had issues in British Rail stations but I don't exactly recall (skipped the machines for ticket counter). Most machines seemed to recognize chip and signature. In Italy for the most part I had no issues using these cards at restaurants or shops either. The hardest part TBH was trying to figure out whether the machine wanted you to leave the card in or pull it out immediately. I was quite scared from hearing other's experiences with traditional magstripe cards, so I got chipped cards, but I'm not really convinced that normal magstripe cards wouldn't work. This could be because I was in really touristy areas of course.
The one place where I could not use a chip & signature card at all were every TrenItalia ticket machine I tried from Rome to Genoa. Leaving the card in, swiping like a regular magstripe card, punching in 0000 as the PIN, none of these worked with the chip cards. I'm sure you could go to the manned ticket office but the queues were ridiculous. The only card I had immediately accessible was a prepaid AmEx from a promotion, which worked perfectly fine for numerous purchases of train tickets (from 5-200 EUR) and saved me from digging thru a stack of credit cards and trying to remember which had no FTF, etc.
So bottom line, if you're really concerned carry both chip and magstripe, or budget enough time to be able to figure it out (eg queueing at a manned ticket counter).
Secondly chip and signature should work in any place taking chip and pin which is manned because there is no way of looking at a card and knowing whether it is chip and pin or chip and signature (again if I'm mistaken on this, please correct me). I can understand difficulties in kiosks as the question doesn't arise until the card is put in the terminal.
And some have reported in those situations where you are using a chip and signature card, the key to unlocking the fort is the cash advane pin number. I remain skeptical of this but several have claimed this works.
Just how much magnetic strip cards don't work is also open to questin. I've been using chip and signature cards (Andrews requiring signature and citibank AA swallowing my whatever and paying the what should be outlawed 3% ransom on some small purchases) more or less as tests....I have now sort of standardized for the time being on the BA 1-2-3 card which replaced the Schwab card and has no foreign transacton fee and gives me 1% but last time I was in Europe it was not chipped (it is now) but am quite sure that 99..9% of the time, especially in my haunts in the UK and in France, the two European countries I visit the most, the magnetic strip card would work.
But then again Rome wasn't built in a day, now was it?
Oct 2, 2012, 3:47 am
#443
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,433
Secondly chip and signature should work in any place taking chip and pin which is manned because there is no way of looking at a card and knowing whether it is chip and pin or chip and signature (again if I'm mistaken on this, please correct me). I can understand difficulties in kiosks as the question doesn't arise until the card is put in the terminal.
Just how much magnetic strip cards don't work is also open to questin. I've been using chip and signature cards (Andrews requiring signature and citibank AA swallowing my whatever and paying the what should be outlawed 3% ransom on some small purchases) more or less as tests
Oct 3, 2012, 10:18 am
#444
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NYC
Programs: AA GLD, AC
Posts: 4,220
In my latest paper statement from my Citi ThankYou Rewards MC, there was an ad encouraging me to call to request a chip version of the card. It wasn't clear to me whether this was chip & PIN or chip & sig - just showed a card with a chip on it.
As I would never even think of using this card outside the US due to the foreign-transaction fee, I won't be requesting the chip.
I wanted to post this because this was the first time I've ever had a credit or debit card issuer actively promote a chip card to me (well, at least since the 90s, when Fleet offered me what I think was the first-ever chip card, which came with a cool authenticating device but in the end was quietly dropped by the bank.)
As I would never even think of using this card outside the US due to the foreign-transaction fee, I won't be requesting the chip.
I wanted to post this because this was the first time I've ever had a credit or debit card issuer actively promote a chip card to me (well, at least since the 90s, when Fleet offered me what I think was the first-ever chip card, which came with a cool authenticating device but in the end was quietly dropped by the bank.)
Oct 3, 2012, 10:55 am
#445
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
It costs nothing to you get a card that has the chip, it still retains the mag-stripe, you can do it online on citicards.com, sooner or later you'll need an EMV card domestically per VISA, MC, Discover and AMEX carrot-and-stick mandates anyway, so might as well get it done and over with.
Last edited by kebosabi; Oct 3, 2012 at 11:12 am
Oct 3, 2012, 11:36 am
#446
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NYC
Programs: AA GLD, AC
Posts: 4,220
Whether or not you might use it abroad or not, it's better to just upgrade since the US is already in the midst of switching over to EMV domestically anyway.
It costs nothing to you get a card that has the chip, it still retains the mag-stripe, you can do it online on citicards.com, sooner or later you'll need an EMV card domestically per VISA, MC, Discover and AMEX carrot-and-stick mandates anyway, so might as well get it done and over with.
It costs nothing to you get a card that has the chip, it still retains the mag-stripe, you can do it online on citicards.com, sooner or later you'll need an EMV card domestically per VISA, MC, Discover and AMEX carrot-and-stick mandates anyway, so might as well get it done and over with.
Oct 4, 2012, 7:12 am
#447
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 668
I'm in Copenhagen now on business and trying to use the Chase Sapphire Preferred, since it specially has no foreign transaction fees. I've tried to use it 6 times, and 5 times out of 6 I couldn't get it to work. You can't buy metro/train tickets with it, nor has it worked in most stores. Even when you swipe you are asked for a PIN code, although I didn't set a PIN code for this card. And when calling Chase to ask if I can set a PIN code, they tell me yes but it will take 5-10 days and will be mailed to my home address in the US.
For a card that sells itself on convenience for foreign travelers, this is really inexcusable. Add the damn chip already, and make it chip and pin, NOT chip and signature!
For a card that sells itself on convenience for foreign travelers, this is really inexcusable. Add the damn chip already, and make it chip and pin, NOT chip and signature!
Oct 4, 2012, 7:20 am
#448
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 3,945
I'm in Copenhagen now on business and trying to use the Chase Sapphire Preferred, since it specially has no foreign transaction fees. I've tried to use it 6 times, and 5 times out of 6 I couldn't get it to work. You can't buy metro/train tickets with it, nor has it worked in most stores. Even when you swipe you are asked for a PIN code, although I didn't set a PIN code for this card. And when calling Chase to ask if I can set a PIN code, they tell me yes but it will take 5-10 days and will be mailed to my home address in the US.
For a card that sells itself on convenience for foreign travelers, this is really inexcusable. Add the damn chip already, and make it chip and pin, NOT chip and signature!
For a card that sells itself on convenience for foreign travelers, this is really inexcusable. Add the damn chip already, and make it chip and pin, NOT chip and signature!
Last edited by TAHKUCT; Oct 4, 2012 at 7:49 am
Oct 4, 2012, 7:29 am
#449
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
The Chase card is chip and signature not chip and pin.
Oct 4, 2012, 7:30 am
#450
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Did you enter any pin code? Some suggest any pin code will work in these instances; others claim it is the cash advance pin number. We haven't been able to unravel that here yet.