Sep 20, 2013, 11:40 am
Last edit by: philemer
Posts from 1/1/16 onward can be found here: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credit-card-programs/1739359-2016-onward-usa-emv-cards-availability-q-chip-pin-signature.html
EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi
What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:
Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1
SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface
Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.
Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.
Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.
If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.
Thanks for helping out!
As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.
Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.
What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.
Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.
Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).
The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.
One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.
I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.
If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.
Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.
As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.
I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)
I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.
In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.
The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:
You are worried about this happening, right?
You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:
With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.
Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:
Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.
Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.
Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.
In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.
In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.
BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.
However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.
But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.
1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?
2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.
3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?
4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.
5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.
6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?
But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.
[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]
You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.
And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!
So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.
And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.
https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud
These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.
But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.
But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.
Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.
I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?
Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.
If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.
And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.
In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.
But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.
If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.
The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
EMV wikipost volunteers: kebosabi
What is EMV?
EMV is a defacto global standard of technology where there is a visible microchip on the front of the card. It looks like this:
Who issues them?
See Google Docs spreadsheet in Post #1
SFOAMS also has created a list of excellent webpage that shows US EMV cards in a more interactive interface
Another site, which lets you narrow the search for an EMV card by various parameters, is http://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/index.php.
Several credit unions issue some form of Chip-and-PIN credit cards or prepaid cards. Prepaid EMV cards however are not recommended due to junk fees. USAA (currently restricted to members of military) used to offer Chip-and-PIN cards, but as late has backtracked to Chip-and-Signature priority.
Hey that's a cool Google Docs list! I know others that aren't on that list. How can I help by adding them to the list?
My bad for not putting this into the wiki sooner. Right now, the Google Docs is locked out of editing and only in "read-only" view because there were instances in the past where people would just delete the rows not thinking that it affects others viewing the list.
If you promise not to delete any rows and input all the pertinent info (annual fee, rewards, FTF, etc.), I can provide you with edit access. Just shoot me a PM to kebosabi with your gmail address and I'll provide you edit access.
Thanks for helping out!
As of October 2014, no USA-based card issuer offers Chip-and-PIN priority cards except for BMO Harris (Diners Club) and UN Federal Credit Union. Other major USA-based banks such as BofA, Chase, Citi, as well as others issue Chip-and-Signature cards which may work at many automated kiosks. However, bear in mind the word may is used above is a context where there is no absolute certainty of success for certain environments such as automated kiosks due to different natures of offline and online transactions. It is highly recommended to read Post #3 which lists real life FTer examples on how Chip-and-Signature worked and did not work at various transaction environments.
Can I upgrade it right now?
If it's listed on that Google Docs spreadsheet or SFOAMS' Silk page, wouldn't hurt to call/twitter them for a free upgrade. If you get the response you don't like, hang up, try again.
What is the difference between Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN?
You insert the chipped card into the slot. The physical contact terminal will read the EMV chip and the terminal will automatically read the preferred cardholder verification methods (called CVM) for that card.
Chip-and-Signature means that the terminal will printout a receipt for you to sign. This is the most prevalent authentication for most US issued EMV cards. Chip-and-Signature helps in a way that it will get through to face-to-face merchant transactions where you and the merchant do not speak the same language.
Chip-and-PIN means that the terminal will prompt you to input a PIN for authentication. Some credit union issued credit cards will have this CVM as secondary if Chip-and-Signature cannot be done. Chip-and-PIN is the more prevalent method of authentication used outside the US, especially in transaction environments where no human interaction is needed (i.e. automated gas pumps, toll roads, train kiosks, etc.).
The Google Docs spreadsheet will list which CVM are used in the EMV cards listed. Some cards can only do Chip-and-Signature. Other cards can do both Chip-and-Signature and Chip-and-PIN. And others might have a third option called No CVM (no authentication needed) which is reserved for low value transactions.
One chip can hold a lot more data, therefore it is capable of doing multiple verification methods. That's one of the great things about EMV over the mag-stripe which can hold very little data.
I want to know for sure what my EMV chip does. Is there anyway I can test out my own EMV card to see what the CVM list is?
alexmt has written up a nice step-by-step procedure on Post #3615.
If most of the EMV cards in the US is the Chip-and-Signature type, doesn't that mean it's still useless abroad?
Depends if you see it as glass half empty or glass half full. See Post #3 for further details on how Chip-and-Signature has worked both successfully and unsuccessfully depending on the merchant transaction environment and use your best judgment whether which one is right for you.
Are there any places in the US that are accepting transactions via the EMV chip?
tmiw has created a dedicated Google maps webpage to show where EMV has been proven to work here: http://emvacceptedhere.com/ Per his Post #4240, feel free to add any places with active EMV terminals if you come across one.
As of 2014/05, the EMV terminals in most Walmarts and Sam's Clubs are being turned on. Hence, the best place to try them out would be your local Walmart or Sam's Club. For other merchants, it's slowly being phased in.
I hope people will post them in the Post your receipt of your 1st EMV based transaction in the US thread. cvarming has shown us an EMV transaction receipt from Brooklyn, NY in Post #2380. I myself had my first EMV based (Chip-and-Signature) transaction in two stores in the Los Angeles area, as shown in detail in Post #2705 (courtesy of WhatWhatTech for pointing these two stores out)
I don't want a chip in my card. I heard horror stories all over the media saying hackers can steal my credit card info from a mile away.
There are two types of chips. One is contactless and the other is contact. Cards can be either one or the other, or both.
In the Google Docs spreadsheet, the cards that are capable of contactless payments are listed seperately under the "RFID or NFC contactless chip" column. If it says yes, then that means it has the ability to do contactless payments. If it says no, it doesn't have that feature.
The one that the media has overhyped about hackers "stealing your information wirelessly" was the contactless type like this:
You are worried about this happening, right?
You don't have to worry. EMV is a chip standard that can have both contact and contactless interfaces. With the traditional contact interface, this means you actually have to physically insert the chip into a POS terminal for it to be authorized, like this:
With the contact interface, nothing is wireless. No data is sent out in a stand-alone contact type EMV chip. With the EMV contactless interface, data is sent wirelessly.
Furthermore, contactless chip cards are required to show a symbol (looks like Wi-Fi symbol) somewhere on the card that to denote it's capability as a contactless card. For example, here's an example of a Discover Card with contactless capability (in which Discover calls "Discover ZIP") showing the contactless symbol on the back of the card:
Don't believe everything that the media says. Besides, millions of people all over the world from London to Singapore, uses contactless payments daily in extremely crowded subways and mass transit with nary any problems. There are multiple layers of encrypted securities and keys that are needed to break the code.
Frankly, giving your physical card to a waiter/waitress who takes the card out of your view is much more susceptible to fraud than contactless payments.
Why should I care?
If you are an international traveler, you will want this because majority of the world has or in the process of converting to this payment format.
In fact, in 2012, even North Korea moved to the EMV format, leaving the US as one of the countries in the world that hasn't done so.
In addition, VISA, MC, AMEX, and Discover have all agreed to incentivize the USA shifting to EMV payments by 2015 by shifting liability for fraudulent transactions to merchants if they do not have EMV equipment and the cardholder has an EMV card. So if you travel internationally or would like to get one before the others, you might be interested in getting one.
BS! I had no problems using my card in [insert whereever country], [insert whatever point in time]
If you stick to the tourist path where they have lots of visitors from the US, you should have no problems using your mag-stripe only card in hotels and restaurants, at least for now. But as things can change as things go forward.
However, consider that once you start taking the off-beaten path, go to non-touristy places where they are not familiar with mag-stripes, rent a car and use toll roads, fill up gas, or try to buy train tickets you might end up into a trouble of the machine not recognizing your card because it lacks the chip. Furthermore, a lot of toll roads, gas pumps, and automated ticket machines lack any human assistance to help you when you need it the most.
But [insert credit card company] told me all merchants that display their logo must accept them! All I have to do is report them for violating their agreements, right?
There are several factors against this.
1. You can only speak English. The merchant representative, most likely a part-time clerk earning minimum wage, speaks in a different language, let's say French. If you have no French language skills, how are you going to get your point across? Are you going to whip out your cell phone at exorbitant int'l roaming charges and hope the customer service is going to translate it for you on the spot? Or maybe you might actually know French. But how about Swahili, Farsi, Balinese, or the multiple languages in mainland China?
2. Just like US, the rest of the world's businesses uses part-time minimum wage workers as cashiers to cut down on labor costs. Most of their SOP training manuals are written by MBA types to not to do anything they are not familiar with. Do not expect them to understand the intricate details of credit card mumbo jumbo. You don't expect Taco Bell employees to understand the minute details of Discover-JCB-Union Pay agreements, right? Same thing the other way around: be respectful as a guest in their country, prepare in advance in their ways, avoid being an "ugly American" stereotype.
3. You are a guest in their country. You are a minority. If 99.9% of their country's people and other tourists from around the world uses EMV, do you really think they are going to accomodate the 0.1% of American tourists who only have mag-stripes credit cards?
4. Again, you are a guest in their country. How would you, as an American standing in line, react if a Chinese tourist was clogging up the lines at a local Taco Bell because the clerk doesn't understand the Discover-Union Pay agreement and has trouble communicating between Mandarin spoken by the tourist and English spoken by the Taco Bell clerk? Same way the other way around. You do not want to clog up the lines for everyone. The less hassle, the better.
5. VISA and MC make tons of money from merchants in that country. Say SNCF French Rail. It's a billion dollar company in France. Do you think VISA is going to pull the plug of their relationship with SNCF because SNCF refuses to do mag-stripe processing at their unmanned train station kiosk? Of course not. Be realistic.
6. And lastly, if you're up against an unstaffed toll kiosk, gas pump or train ticket machine, are you going to yell curses at the machine?
But I want my credit card to be able to be used in the US too!
No worries. They have not gotten rid of the mag-stripe on the back of the card for backward compatibility reasons, just like we still have embossed numbers on our cards for backwards compatibility to using those old carbon copy imprinters.
[insert own Hyatt card image front and back together with red arrows pointing to all the backward compatibility features]
You use the chip on the front of the card abroad (for now), and the mag-stripe just like any other card for the US. Basically, you're increasing your credit card's acceptance rate by getting a card that both via the chip and the mag-stripe. You're getting a better deal for free.
And when 2015 comes along and US switches to EMV, you'll be way ahead of everyone else too!
So why did the rest of the world and the US moved/moving toward EMV?
Primarily, due to fraud concerns. You see, the mag-stripe has been with us since the 1950s. It may have been the most high tech thing back in the day, but with the technology that is available today, any shmo can pick up a $100 USB magnetic card skimming device off of eBay and get your credit card info.
And unlike skimming off contactless cards which actually need the person to have l33t programming skills, skimming off a magnetic stripe has become so ubiquitous that nary a day goes about skimming fraud going on somewhere in America, from gas pumps, Michael's stores (2011), Target breaches (2013), restaurant waiters/waitresses, to even McDonald's drive thrus.
https://www.google.com/search?q=skimming+fraud
These type of fraud used to be prevalent in Europe. But once they started switching over to EMV starting over 2 decades ago, this type of fraud went elsewhere. It went over to Asia, Canada and Mexico, Latin America, etc. etc. until they too began implementing EMV to combat skimming fraud. The US is practically the only country left that hasn't done so, therefore all the fraud that used to take place elsewhere is now happening here.
But EMV is old and it's not fool proof. Shouldn't we just skip over it and do something new instead?
Yes, EMV is old. It was developed in the 1990s and its smart card payment predecessor was first introduced in France. But as of today, it has become the defacto global standard of payments.
But then, what else is there? There is no other de facto global standard of payments alternative. For example, if we decide to skip over it and do something new, hypothetically like DNA matching technology, it still means US int'l travelers will continue to have problems abroad with useless plastic acceptance because no other country is using this DNA matching technology except the US.
Besides, nothing is fool proof. You can say that the bank vault isn't fool proof because you can crack it open if enough C4 is used. But your average low-life scumbag isn't likely to get military grade C4 easily either. But the bank vault does make it harder to get the bank's money over say a petty cash box. That's the point here. EMV is akin to a security tight bank vault, the old mag-stripe is akin to a petty cash box lying around inside the drawer.
I'm a business owner and I don't think EMV is going to take off. I'm not going to spend extra hundreds of dollars to upgrade my credit card machine. Convince me other wise why I should.
I can understand the added extra cost to your business once this switchover takes place. But before even saying that, look at your existing POS terminal. Does it have a slot somewhere to insert a card?
Most likely, if you had replaced your POS terminal within the past five years, you already have an EMV capable terminal. EMV is basically just not turned on yet from the processor and acquirer side.
If you have an EMV capable terminal, then a best bet would be to contact your acquirer to have the EMV feature turned on. You did your end of the deal already by having an EMV capable terminal, it is now the acquirers' responsibility to turn it on in accordance to the EMV switchover mandate.
And if you don't, you are going to replace your POS terminal anyway from common wear and tear. It isn't a hard switch-over. You can continue to use your POS terminal until it dies out because EMV cardholders will still have the mag-stripe on the back. And by the time your non-EMV capable POS terminal is up for replacement the market will be full with these newer POS terminals that can accept the mag-stripe, EMV, as well as contactless payments.
In addition, you may also want to check with your acquirer or processor about EMV capable terminals. Some of them are willing to replace your terminal for free in preparation for the US EMV switchover. Call and ask for details.
But what's in it for me? I'm the one that has to pay for the upgrade.
All the major card networks have given incentives for merchants for the upcoming EMV switchover.
If 75% or more of your credit card transactions are done on an EMV contact and contactless terminal, they are going to waive your annual PCI-DSS fees, which usually costs you around $5.00-$19.95/month per terminal. The overall long term cost savings of those compliance fees will be larger than the cost of an one time upgrade for the terminal.
The downside is that once EMV switchover happens and if you do not have a POS terminal that is able to accept EMV, the fraud liability shifts over to the merchant.
I own several fast food franchises. If I upgrade my POS terminals at all of my restaurants, it's going to cost me thousands, if not millions. I don't think anyone is going to use a fake credit card to buy $5 burgers. And if they do, wouldn't it be cheaper for me to eat the fraud cost?
Remember also that fraud isn't just committed by dishonest customers using fraudulent cards. Fraud can also happen with dishonest employees skimming off credit card data from the mag-stripe as in the case of a teenage McDonald's drive thru employee skimming off $13,000 of customers' credit cards in Olympia, WA. Consider the public relations fall out that your business may have if this happens (i.e. the big Target breach of 2013, where someone used a mag stripe card to load malware INTO Target's system). Is it worth risking to take such a huge PR disaster?
USA EMV cards: Availability, Q&A (Chip & PIN -or- Chip & Signature) [2012-2015]
Jul 2, 2013, 1:26 pm
#1501
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: HaMerkaz/Exit 145
Programs: UA, LY, BA, AA
Posts: 13,167
I had that at ZRH by the left luggage area. It offered me 9 francs or $9.95, but I had the choice
Jul 2, 2013, 2:41 pm
#1502
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
OT:
AAA SoCal has to be one of the most backward AAAs in the nation.
Not only does it not accept payments via credit cards (when others do), it also keeps sending me monthly bills via papered snail mail rather than providing me with a paperless statement option. When I asked them about this one time, their reply was "well if we moved to paperless statements, then people without computers will be at a disadvantage."
I think whomever is at the top of AAA SoCal is an old geezer or something who still does things the old fashioned way who expects everyone still pays everything by checks and stamps. XD
AAA SoCal has to be one of the most backward AAAs in the nation.
Not only does it not accept payments via credit cards (when others do), it also keeps sending me monthly bills via papered snail mail rather than providing me with a paperless statement option. When I asked them about this one time, their reply was "well if we moved to paperless statements, then people without computers will be at a disadvantage."
I think whomever is at the top of AAA SoCal is an old geezer or something who still does things the old fashioned way who expects everyone still pays everything by checks and stamps. XD
Jul 2, 2013, 3:06 pm
#1503
Join Date: Aug 2008
Programs: HHonors Gold, Marriott Lifetime Gold, IHG Gold, OZ*G, AA Gold, AS MVP
Posts: 1,874
It kind of is. In my personal experience, pretty much everywhere I've stayed in Japan I've been able to pay with credit cards. Oddly enough, this was true even of the one place that stated in writing that they were cash-only, and I had went to the trouble of withdrawing cash for that. I got to the check-in counter and noticed what appeared to be a merchant CC terminal. After confirming what it was, I chose to pay with my CSP instead of cash and that was that. Once I started buying unlocked Japanese phones and linked my US cards to local e-wallets (BA Visa to mobile Suica directly and to Edy by way of my Rakuten ID) I can easily spend less than 2k yen cash a day if I'm not buying iTunes or PSN gift cards to take home and am feeling impatient (big electronics stores take CC payments for those, convenience stores don't). If I choose to eat exclusively at chain establishments and department store basements, I can probably go without spending cash at all.
Jul 2, 2013, 3:08 pm
#1504
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Balkan peninsula
Posts: 31
Some newly found working EMV terminals:
All about tenis, Scottsdale, Arizona
Downtown taxi, New York City
Sports authority, Cheyenne, Wyoming
Empire luggage, New York
Meijer, Benton Harbor, Michigan
Ralphs, San Diego, California
CVS pharmacy, Mountain View, California
Macy's East, Seattle, Washington
All about tenis, Scottsdale, Arizona
Downtown taxi, New York City
Sports authority, Cheyenne, Wyoming
Empire luggage, New York
Meijer, Benton Harbor, Michigan
Ralphs, San Diego, California
CVS pharmacy, Mountain View, California
Macy's East, Seattle, Washington
Jul 2, 2013, 3:44 pm
#1505
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Canada
Programs: BA Gold (OWE), Star Alliance Gold, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,194
Some newly found working EMV terminals:
All about tenis, Scottsdale, Arizona
Downtown taxi, New York City
Sports authority, Cheyenne, Wyoming
Empire luggage, New York
Meijer, Benton Harbor, Michigan
Ralphs, San Diego, California
CVS pharmacy, Mountain View, California
Macy's East, Seattle, Washington
All about tenis, Scottsdale, Arizona
Downtown taxi, New York City
Sports authority, Cheyenne, Wyoming
Empire luggage, New York
Meijer, Benton Harbor, Michigan
Ralphs, San Diego, California
CVS pharmacy, Mountain View, California
Macy's East, Seattle, Washington
Jul 2, 2013, 4:38 pm
#1506
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SJC
Programs: AA, AS, Marriott
Posts: 6,061
The only advantage I see for avoiding DCC with an EMV card is one where you maintain possession of the card throughout the transaction at a POS terminal.
Jul 2, 2013, 4:50 pm
#1507
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Canada
Programs: BA Gold (OWE), Star Alliance Gold, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,194
The same thing happened to me at the Frankfurt Marriott. Unfortunately I was already on the train before I realized that I had been subjected to DCC. The deceptive part was that the hotel had quoted the rate in EUR at check-in, and I thought I was signing a receipt in EUR upon check-out. Then I noticed the standard disclaimer of "You have been given a choice of currencies and have elected to..." I ended up e-mailing the hotel's manager and got some MR points worth more than the fee of the DCC.
The only advantage I see for avoiding DCC with an EMV card is one where you maintain possession of the card throughout the transaction at a POS terminal.
The only advantage I see for avoiding DCC with an EMV card is one where you maintain possession of the card throughout the transaction at a POS terminal.
You wouldn't believe how many merchants use DCC in the US though, I gave up using my MasterCard in restaurants and use my amex with a fee as it works out much cheaper because it avoids DCC.
Jul 2, 2013, 5:54 pm
#1508
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,433
One can always refuse and force them to change back. I did not know of Carrefour France, since I shop there using a French card, but I am not surprised. Another surprising one for me is Marriott which charges DCC in some UK properties as well as non-geographic phone surcharges on incoming calls. I stopped using Marriott properties entirely when they did both of those to me and refused adjustment.
Jul 2, 2013, 6:06 pm
#1509
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
Before entering the pin, I check the amount very carefully on the terminal. I do wonder just how this method of attacking this scam would work on a chip and pin transaction where the merchant refuses to do the charge properly.
Jul 2, 2013, 6:18 pm
#1510
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,433
I will never allow any merchant to pull this stuff on me. If they refuse to do the chare properly and in compliance with visa/mc regulations, I circle the local amount on the charge slip, cross out the dcc amount and write local option not offered and then I dispute the charge through my bank who are required to charge it back to the merchant. Have done it two or three times and have "won" every time. Paying cash just encourages them to continue ripping off their customers.
What exactly do you cross out? How do you know how much to dispute?
I've had many merchants ask if I'd rather pay in dollars or local currencies. This was the first and only time I wasn't given a choice.
Jul 2, 2013, 7:18 pm
#1511
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,762
The bill is €100. The charge slip says $140 and does not break out any dcc amount, if I'm remembering correctly. Since I watch exchange rates when I travel outside the US, I know that amount is dollars should be approximately $130. (Numbers for illustration.)
What exactly do you cross out? How do you know how much to dispute?
I've had many merchants ask if I'd rather pay in dollars or local currencies. This was the first and only time I wasn't given a choice.
What exactly do you cross out? How do you know how much to dispute?
I've had many merchants ask if I'd rather pay in dollars or local currencies. This was the first and only time I wasn't given a choice.
It's just a savage world out there and these rip offs have become a daily occurance along with the tricks merchants use to suck you in. But as I say all the time, my name is Tucker not Sucker.
Jul 2, 2013, 7:45 pm
#1512
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,433
If what you're writing is correct, the merchant is in even more violation of the merchant's agreement. The merchant is required to show both amounts on the charge slips as well as the rate being used and the disclaimer you were given the opportunity to pay in local currency and have chosen to pay in your currency and the choice is irrevocable. Of course sometimes with hotels (usually for lodging), they trick you into agreeing on the registration card (Marriot is notorious for this) and then use that to show you agreed to this scam. If indeed what you are saying is true, I would dispute the charge for their failure to follow proper dcc procedures; in addition be aware that if you use a credit card with the asinine 3% foreign transaction fee, you will be nicked for an addition 3% from your bank too.
It's just a savage world out there and these rip offs have become a daily occurance along with the tricks merchants use to suck you in. But as I say all the time, my name is Tucker not Sucker.
It's just a savage world out there and these rip offs have become a daily occurance along with the tricks merchants use to suck you in. But as I say all the time, my name is Tucker not Sucker.
I wasn't staying at the hotel, so I didn't agree to anything in advance.
I might not be remembering exactly what was shown on the charge slip, although I do remember that the exchange rate was a bit more than 5% worse than market (based on a Citibank withdrawal a few hours earlier and whatever phone app I was using). I could have calculated it or it could have been shown on the slip.
Anyway, if not giving a choice is a violation of Visa policy, then that Marriott was violating Visa policy.
Jul 3, 2013, 12:17 am
#1513
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
Remember, throughout this whole EMV thing, it was only until recently that VISA's "strict" policy was "that merchants must accept mag-stripe by policy 'or else.' "
Except "or else" was usually an empty threat because VISA ain't stupid to pull the plug from a merchant, especially one that is a big multinational corporation like Marriott or a national conglomerate SNCF Rail or that makes VISA and their shareholders richer.
What makes you think VISA is going to do a full investigation against Marriott? VISA isn't a police agency, it's a corporation out to make money and shareholders expect VISA to continue to make money for them. Balance between some shmo who got DCCed for a few Euro versus a long lasting relationship with Marriott in which VISA profits from year after year, what do you think VISA is going to do?
Absolutely nothing. Be realistic on how the world works when corporations run everything.
Now, if you the complainer was a big shareholder of VISA stocks and you had the power to tell the board members running VISA to get rid of this DCC thing then it would be a different matter.
OTOH, if there was some kind of hidden benefit for VISA shareholders' credit cards to automatically decline DCC when inserted or swiped, I'd happily buy a VISA stock as well and let other shmos who fall for the DCC trick make them earn money for me. (Something like kebosabi is a VISA stock holder, all VISA credit and debit cards issued to kebosabi, set parameter to automatically decline DCC ^)
Last edited by kebosabi; Jul 3, 2013 at 12:23 am
Jul 3, 2013, 12:26 am
#1514
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,537
I guess that's my point: You made it sounds like Germany is different than anywhere else in Europe. How many non-chain hotels don't take credit cards in Germany? Quite a few don't in Switzerland, quite a few don't in Austria, I had to pick and choose those that did. Even fewer took credit cards in Japan! Yet you say credit card usage is much higher there!
So as a tourist myself, I interpret "credit card free" (espeically in a thread about using cards designed for US-based tourists) as a statement about acceptance.
But you apparently meant "credit card free" in terms of local use of credit cards. That's a completely different statistic. And one not necessarily relevant: Local people may spend on the same things that visitors do. So one country that has low local credit card usage might also have low credit cards acceptance even in tourist circumstances, while another country that has low local credit card usage might still have high credit cards acceptance in tourist circumstances.
So yes, by your definition (of local use), your statement was correct.
But I maintain it was misleading, because in this thread I bet most of use read "credit card free" as talking about acceptance (on things a tourist might spend on*). And in terms of accpetance, I still don't see evidence that Germany is signicantly different than many other Western European countries.
*Among things a tourist is not likely to spend on often but locals might use a lot: Furniture stores, appliance stores, school tuition, insurance**, apartment rent**, etc, etc.
** Btw, I can't even pay my auto insurance (AAA SoCal), nor my apartment rent, by credit card here in the USA. So even the USA, with its super high number of credit cards per person, doesn't have perfect acceptance for local use stuff.
Perhaps more important to the acceptance issue is whether the country has its own local-only debit card with many users. Where the country does, there's the bothersome habit of places that seem to take cards but actually only take that local-only debit card. (I first ran into that about a decade ago in Denmark, but it's certainly not unique to Denmark.) However, not all countries have this (or at least not widespread enough to have stores that take that but nothing else electronic).
So as a tourist myself, I interpret "credit card free" (espeically in a thread about using cards designed for US-based tourists) as a statement about acceptance.
But you apparently meant "credit card free" in terms of local use of credit cards. That's a completely different statistic. And one not necessarily relevant: Local people may spend on the same things that visitors do. So one country that has low local credit card usage might also have low credit cards acceptance even in tourist circumstances, while another country that has low local credit card usage might still have high credit cards acceptance in tourist circumstances.
So yes, by your definition (of local use), your statement was correct.
But I maintain it was misleading, because in this thread I bet most of use read "credit card free" as talking about acceptance (on things a tourist might spend on*). And in terms of accpetance, I still don't see evidence that Germany is signicantly different than many other Western European countries.
*Among things a tourist is not likely to spend on often but locals might use a lot: Furniture stores, appliance stores, school tuition, insurance**, apartment rent**, etc, etc.
** Btw, I can't even pay my auto insurance (AAA SoCal), nor my apartment rent, by credit card here in the USA. So even the USA, with its super high number of credit cards per person, doesn't have perfect acceptance for local use stuff.
Perhaps more important to the acceptance issue is whether the country has its own local-only debit card with many users. Where the country does, there's the bothersome habit of places that seem to take cards but actually only take that local-only debit card. (I first ran into that about a decade ago in Denmark, but it's certainly not unique to Denmark.) However, not all countries have this (or at least not widespread enough to have stores that take that but nothing else electronic).
As for my "mostly credit card-free country" statement, as you note I was referring to local use, not to acceptance. Usage in Germany is extremely low, I believe the lowest in the developed world.
In my experience, acceptance is far higher in other western European countries than in Germany (France, Switzerland, Italy, etc - never had an issue at all). This likely depends on how far upmarket you travel, and is likely related to the non-usage among locals in Germany.
Even at places that take cards, it's a pain sometimes in Germany. For example, most train ticket machines are EC card only (NOT EMV MC/VISA!) - you need to go to customer service to use any VISA/MC. This is not true at every station, but at least as of May 2011 was true at most stations.
Obviously we've had very different experiences, but that doesn't render either of our experiences wrong.
Jul 3, 2013, 2:02 am
#1515
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: LAX
Programs: AA EXP 1.5MM, Asiana Club Silver, KE Morning Calm, Hyatt Platinum, Amtrak Select
Posts: 7,161
Credit card usage in Japan is on the rise, especially with the younger generation who are addicted to buy stuff online on Amazon Japan and Rakuten.
However, majority of Japan, especially outside of the major tourist areas are strictly a cash only society. If you stick to Tokyo, Osaka, and Kyoto, and perhaps even tourist areas in Fukuoka, Hiroshima, Sapporo and Okinawa, credit cards would be widely accepted from hotels, restaurants, and even convenience stores. Of course, there's a limit to that as you can't really put a donation into the saisen box at Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples. Renting a car in Japan, especially in Tokyo is out of the question since it'll be a massive pain in the butt and hassle. In major metropolitan areas like Tokyo, mass transit is king over there, and unfortunately mass transit kiosks rarely ever take credit cards.
But if you're keen on exploring the hidden gems of Japan which are off the usual touristy destinations (i.e. Izumo, Kanazawa, Kumamoto, Kagoshima, namely Japanese rural towns and cities), then cash is king.
Another major card use in Japan are proprietary contactless cards which are neither VISA, MC, AMEX, not even Japan's own JCB. They are called Suica cards (or PASMO, ICOCA, KiTaCa, depending where you are, no matter what they're called, they are all interchangeably used) which are pretty much like London's OysterCards except its accepted not just for transit, but can also be used to buy goods and services at convenience stores, vending machines, and even certain fast food restaurants.
Since mass transit use is very high in Japan (especially in Tokyo and Osaka), using their proprietary contactless card would be the most convenient way to get around cashless. Unfortunately, it'll be difficult for the traveler to load up their Suica via a credit card (see jamar's post #1503) as most people load up their Suica via cash at the nearest train station kiosk.
And if you decide to go to Asia, don't just go to Japan only and miss out other countries within that region. South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore are all wonderful and safe places to visit that gives you a different (Eastern) perspective to things than the usual American-European (Western) way of life. Things can differ a lot from culture, society, life, religion, etc. and how they adapt them harmoniously with a modern, capitalist, democratic style of living. As it has with most of my co-workers and friends who have visited Asia, it opened up to a bigger perspective that the US and Europe are not the best at everything and there are somethings that places like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore does things much better (i.e.: privatization of mass transit, privatization of airports, structural engineering, quality of life adaptation in a densely populated city, integration of ancient Confucian values and ethics alongside Westernization, etc.).
However, majority of Japan, especially outside of the major tourist areas are strictly a cash only society. If you stick to Tokyo, Osaka, and Kyoto, and perhaps even tourist areas in Fukuoka, Hiroshima, Sapporo and Okinawa, credit cards would be widely accepted from hotels, restaurants, and even convenience stores. Of course, there's a limit to that as you can't really put a donation into the saisen box at Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples. Renting a car in Japan, especially in Tokyo is out of the question since it'll be a massive pain in the butt and hassle. In major metropolitan areas like Tokyo, mass transit is king over there, and unfortunately mass transit kiosks rarely ever take credit cards.
But if you're keen on exploring the hidden gems of Japan which are off the usual touristy destinations (i.e. Izumo, Kanazawa, Kumamoto, Kagoshima, namely Japanese rural towns and cities), then cash is king.
Another major card use in Japan are proprietary contactless cards which are neither VISA, MC, AMEX, not even Japan's own JCB. They are called Suica cards (or PASMO, ICOCA, KiTaCa, depending where you are, no matter what they're called, they are all interchangeably used) which are pretty much like London's OysterCards except its accepted not just for transit, but can also be used to buy goods and services at convenience stores, vending machines, and even certain fast food restaurants.
Since mass transit use is very high in Japan (especially in Tokyo and Osaka), using their proprietary contactless card would be the most convenient way to get around cashless. Unfortunately, it'll be difficult for the traveler to load up their Suica via a credit card (see jamar's post #1503) as most people load up their Suica via cash at the nearest train station kiosk.
And if you decide to go to Asia, don't just go to Japan only and miss out other countries within that region. South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore are all wonderful and safe places to visit that gives you a different (Eastern) perspective to things than the usual American-European (Western) way of life. Things can differ a lot from culture, society, life, religion, etc. and how they adapt them harmoniously with a modern, capitalist, democratic style of living. As it has with most of my co-workers and friends who have visited Asia, it opened up to a bigger perspective that the US and Europe are not the best at everything and there are somethings that places like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore does things much better (i.e.: privatization of mass transit, privatization of airports, structural engineering, quality of life adaptation in a densely populated city, integration of ancient Confucian values and ethics alongside Westernization, etc.).
Last edited by kebosabi; Jul 3, 2013 at 2:09 am