Go Back   FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Car Rental Programs/Partners > Avis | Preferred
Sign in using an external account

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Oct 26, 05, 2:52 am   #1
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: New York City
Programs: 2014 : BA Gold, Flying Blue Platinum for Life , LH/LX Senator, Emirates Gold, Etihad Gold, CX Plat
Posts: 625
Insurance/coverage in Arizona (Avis PHX) What is the law ?

Hi

Last time when I've rent a car on the internet (Avis) and pick it up at PHX the agent told me that he as no choice but adding the Avis insurance to the price or they can't give me the car. I argue that I have that insurance for free with my credit card and that on the rervation confirmation the LDW is listed as Optional Coverage (same for ALI). The agent told me that it was State law and that I must pay or leave the car.

Is it true ? If it is the law why not adding that insurance directly at reservation and why is is listed as Optional Coverage ? Is it the same for ALI ?

Next week I will be back in Phoenix and have a reservation with Avis for a full size, 3 WE days for 86 USD plus taxes and fees total 130 usd

Both LDW (23 plus taxes a day) and ALI (12 plus taxes a day) are listed in the optional coverage again (with API and PAI). One more time I understand that an optional coverage is optional. (I still have my credit card and don't want to pay more for the insurance than for the car).

What is the system in the US and mainly in Arizona ? Is the Avis.com site wrong or was the agent wrong ?

Thanks a lot

Hervé

Last edited by Belgian in Paris; Oct 26, 05 at 2:55 am.
Belgian in Paris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 26, 05, 7:21 am   #2
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: TPA,RSW,SRQ
Programs: United Mileage Plus, AAAdvantage, USAirways
Posts: 96
It might depend on having the right kind of credit card. I have both Us and UK credit cards. I have found that the major rental companies will accept american credit cards but not UK ones.
Perhaps contact Avis customer support to check on their policy.
I know that LDW etc can double and sometimes triple base rate costs.
flyingfriar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 26, 05, 9:35 pm   #3
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: San Jose, CA (SJC/SFO)
Programs: UA 1K MM, HH Diamond, IHG Gold, Marriott Gold, National Exec Elite, Avis Presidents Club
Posts: 3,588
In the US, for US residents with US cards - credit card coverage is secondary - intended only to cover expenses not covered by your personal auto insurance policy (which in most cases extends to cover rental cars). At very least you must have personal liability coverage in most states. Diners Club has long offered primary coverage, and it is starting to be a common feature on some high end or business mastercard / visa / amex cards - but not the norm. Most US cards will provide primary coverage when traveling internationally, however.

Therefore, if I were a US customer with no personal auto insurance policy - I could possibly see not being allowed to rent the vehicle until I had purchased insurance sufficient to cover that state's minimum insurance requirements. If your card covers PRIMARY liability and collision coverage while driving a rental car in the US, you should not be forced to purchase the protection.

FYI - I have never once purchased optional coverage from a rental company. I do carry my proof of insurance card with me, and have on extremely rare occasions been asked to present it before renting a vehicle. Have never been asked to present it in Arizona with any rental car company.
elCheapoDeluxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 27, 05, 1:14 am   #4
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,028
As far as I know, there isnt an insurance requirement for ANY avis rent a car vehicle anywhere. This means that Avis should not, under any circumstances, be forcing you to purchase insurance. If this happens anywhere, CALL THE MANAGER. If the manager insists, ask for the number of the state statue that requires it. Take that information and call the 800 Avis number immediately upon leaving the avis location and get clarification, or go to a local police station and ask for an interpretation.

to my knowledge, any state that requires insurance purchases MUST HAVE IT BUILT INTO THE PRICE and selling of additional insurance is illegal.

Avis provides coverage on all vehicles up to the state minimums as required by law. Meaning if you drove off the lot, if that state requires....liability of x number of dollars...that avis car has it. Whenever you purchase insurance, your purchasing for the excess of what the state minimums require. most states that require insurance will only insist on bare bones liability insurance, usually like 10-20k. The avis website explains this here.


there are exceptions. I will transalate each exception so you understand what it means. But as you can see, Arizona is not on this list.


CALIFORNIA: Automobile Liability and Property Damage Protection is not included in the rental rate. The customer may provide automobile liability insurance through their personal insurance policy or may purchase Additional Liability Insurance.

Transalation: California does not require any insurance proof on rental cars, therefore there is no basic insurance at all. You may purchase additional or use your personal policy in the state if your policy allows for it.
MISSOURI: Avis does not provide Automobile Liability Insurance and Property Damage Protection unless the renter /authorized driver does not carry a personal automobile liability insurance policy. If the renter or authorized driver does not carry a personal automobile liability insurance policy, Avis will provide this coverage up to the financial Responsibility Limits (FRL) at no additional charge.

Transalation: Under Missouri law, avis does not provide any insurance if you have your own insurance policy. If you do not have any insurance, then avis will provide it free of charge to the state minimums. you can purchase additional if you desire. This law basically means that avis will never be primary on insurance if the renter has a policy in their own name. Even if you lie to avis, avis can do an insured search (post accident) and if your name comes up with a policy anywhere, your responsible for all liability. Essentially, Avis is a non entity in this state under any lawsuit for damage you incurr if you have your own personal insurance. so no sense in purchasing any insurance at all here unless you are from out of country.

NEW YORK: Avis provides liability coverage for its vehicles as required by applicable law. In most instances, this will include coverage for the renter or authorized driver up to the Financial Responsibility Limits of the applicable jurisdiction at no additional charge.

Transalation: New York used to not allow the sale of insurance to its customers and required LDW and State minimum ALI to be included in price, which is why new york prices tend to be more expensive. The following changes to the law, effective February 24, 2003:
* In accordance with the provisions of the statute, car rental companies may hold authorized car rental drivers liable for actual damage to, or loss of, a rental vehicle, up to the full value of the vehicle. (Previously, authorized drivers were only held liable for damage up to $100, except in certain limited circumstances)
* Car rental companies will be permitted by the NY state law to offer for a daily fee OPTIONAL Collision Damage Waiver (also known as Loss Damage Waiver) vehicle protection. (Previously, car rental companies were not permitted to offer these optional products.)

What this means is avis, in new york, provides liability coverage up to the state minimums, where before it used to include everything.



In some states the liability coverage that is provided is excess to any other applicable coverage. This means the renters personal automobile liability insurance is used first and the Avis protection will not apply until the renters/authorized drivers insurance, if any, has been exhausted. Please check with the rental agent or nearest Avis reservation center regarding the applicability of automobile liability coverage to specific locations.

transalation: Your personal insurance may be primary depending upon the state in liability issues. HOWEVER, LDW is "loss damage waiver", not "loss damage insurance" which means that the wavier is not an insurance, therefore there is no damages that should be reported to your insurance company, rendering the damage to rented vehicle question moot. But damage to other person and property would go according to state law. In some states, your personal insurance is ALWAYS primary. In others, credit card and purchased additional insurance is primary. ask each state you visit for the difference.


TEXAS: Automobile Liability and Property Damage Protection is not included in the rental rate. The customer may provide automobile liability insurance through their personal insurance policy or may purchase Texas Automobile Rental Liability Insurance.

Transalation: The state of texas regulates the insurance of car rentals in the state. they fix the price and coverages for liability and from what I see may even administer it. It does say that avis cannot force you to buy liability insurance and it warns you that avis does not provide any coverage whatsoever unless you purchase it directly from them. Liability is through your own insurnace if allowed by your company, and through their TARLI program. Vehicle damage is still your responsibility and LDW can be purchased. In state residents are required to show proof of insurance at the time of rental (I have been told, and many texas renters tend to bring their proof of insurance with them when they travel).

UTAH: Avis does not provide Automobile Liability Insurance and Property Damage Protection unless the renter or authorized driver does not carry a personal automobile liability insurance policy. If the renter or authorized driver does not carry a personal automobile liability insurance policy, Avis will provide this coverage up to the Financial Responsibility Limits (FRL) at no additional charge.

Transalation: Under Utah law, avis does not provide any insurance if you have your own insurance policy. If you do not have any insurance, then avis will provide it free of charge to the state minimums. you can purchase additional if you desire. This law basically means that avis will never be primary on insurance if the renter has a policy in their own name. Even if you lie to avis, avis can do an insured search (post accident) and if your name comes up with a policy anywhere, your responsible for all liability. Essentially, Avis is a non entity in this state under any lawsuit for damage you incurr if you have your own personal insurance. so no sense in purchasing any insurance at all here unless you are from out of country

Last edited by ezmonee; Oct 27, 05 at 11:04 am.
ezmonee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 27, 05, 5:38 am   #5
Original Member
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: Portland, OR (PDX)
Posts: 4,649
Some great info, ezmonee. A week ago I rented from National at MSP. I declined insurance, as I always do, and it was not a problem. What was interesting was that the rental agreement contained a line stating that "Minnesota state law requires that the vehicle be covered by auto insurance ISSUED IN THE STATE OF MINNESOTA" (emphasis mine).

I rent cars regularly and this is the first time I have ever seen anything like this. My personal auto insurance policy (issued in my home state of VA) covers rental cars in the U.S., which is likely the case with most U.S. auto insurance policies, and is why I never buy the insurance from the rental car companies. This has me wondering now if Minnesota, and perhaps other states, are moving to force out-of-state renters to purchase the rental car issued insurance.
MileKing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 27, 05, 10:55 am   #6
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,028
Thats kind of shifty. dont take their sign as gospel. do your research. the first place to ask is your own personal insurance agent. A perfect example of how shifty this sounds is a compalny like progressive or geico or allstate. all three are licensed to issue insurance in all 50 states, though their insurance meets minimums for, in this case, virginia.

Minnesota auto insurance laws require minimum policy requirements for all licensed vehicles in Minnesota. This includes standard liability coverage, personal injury protection (PIP), and uninsured motorist and underinsured motorist coverage. Minnesota is a no fault state requiring minimum Personal Injury Protection (PIP) coverage of $40,000. PIP pays $20,000 of your medical expenses and $20,000 for non-medical expenses no matter who is at fault for the car accident. PIP is also known as the "No Fault" coverage.

Liability coverage minimum is 30/60/10: $30,000 for injuries to one person, $60,000 for injuries to two or more people, $10,000 for physical damage to the other driver's vehicle or property damage.

Furthermore, from the Minnesota DCCA Website brocure on insurance...

What about coverage of rental cars?
Minnesota law requires every automobile insurance policy, under
the property damage liability portion, to provide a minimum of
$35,000 in coverage, without a deductible, for damage to, and
loss of use of, a rental car (including pickup trucks and vans
under 26,000 pounds). State law further specifies that when a
driver rents a vehicle in Minnesota, a separate notice must be
attached to the rental contract that informs the driver of this coverage.
The notice must also state: “purchase of any collision damage
waiver or similar insurance affected in this rental contract is
not necessary if your policy was issued in Minnesota.” The same
law requires that no collision damage waiver or other insurance
affecting the rented vehicle can be sold unless the person renting
the vehicle acknowledges in writing that the consumer protection
notice has been read and understood.


Transalated, it states that You DONT need to buy insurance if your insurance was issued in Minnesota because "your minnesota insurance meets state minimum guidelines". Please insure that your car meets the minimums as required by law.
AVIS RENT A CAR PROVIDES THE STATE MINIMUM INSURANCE in each state that it operates as evidenced by the websites statement. If in an accident while in minnesota, your personal insurance will be primary. If your limits are exhausted, then Avis will cick in up to the state minimums to comply with law.

I think the correct verbage of the Contract at National should say

"Our cars are not insured, in order for you to drive the car off the lot,you must meet the minnesota state minimum guidelines for car rental insurance."

OR

"law states our cars must be insured to drive off the lot and we provide that insurance, but were not telling you that in the hopes that you spend more money on LDW/ALI. "

If you rent at National again in minnesota, check the glove box. if it has an insurance card, your covered. its mighty hard to get license plates and registration without proof of insurance. All avis cars have either a certificate of "self insurance" or an actual "insurance card" issued by continental casualy inc. CC INC is licensed to insure vehicles in all 50 states therefore will provide state minimums guarantee in the event of an accident.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MileKing
Some great info, ezmonee. A week ago I rented from National at MSP. I declined insurance, as I always do, and it was not a problem. What was interesting was that the rental agreement contained a line stating that "Minnesota state law requires that the vehicle be covered by auto insurance ISSUED IN THE STATE OF MINNESOTA" (emphasis mine).

I rent cars regularly and this is the first time I have ever seen anything like this. My personal auto insurance policy (issued in my home state of VA) covers rental cars in the U.S., which is likely the case with most U.S. auto insurance policies, and is why I never buy the insurance from the rental car companies. This has me wondering now if Minnesota, and perhaps other states, are moving to force out-of-state renters to purchase the rental car issued insurance.

Last edited by ezmonee; Oct 27, 05 at 11:19 am.
ezmonee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 27, 05, 11:21 am   #7
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: New York City
Programs: 2014 : BA Gold, Flying Blue Platinum for Life , LH/LX Senator, Emirates Gold, Etihad Gold, CX Plat
Posts: 625
Thanks for all your comments.

I have send an Email to Avis europe and they confirm that I can rent the car without the insurance. They haven't proposed to give me some money back for the first renting....

I will take the Email with me in PHX
Belgian in Paris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 27, 05, 1:23 pm   #8
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Yellowknife, NWT, Canada and Sacramento, CA, US; UA Explorer Elite
Posts: 1,795
The cars are all insured

Avis is the owner, not the renter. So under state law, Avis is required to be financially responsible for their vehicles. They likely self-insure, rather than purchasing coverage, and that's why they want to capture the CDW from the customer.

Drivers typically are not required to be insured; only the owners.
Reindeerflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 28, 05, 12:49 am   #9
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: PHX
Programs: US Airways Silver
Posts: 3,789
The thing to remember is that there's two types of insurance: liability and comprehensive. Liability covers damage you may do to someone else, and often has state mandates. If the state minimum doesn't satisfy you, you can get the ALI (additional liability insurnace).

The actual car is covered by a comprehensive policy, and it's what the CDW/LDW covers. There is no state that requires it by law. Avis may want you to get it because it's very profitable for them, but there's no legal requirement. Be aware that if you have no other insurance at all, you will be repsonsible of the cost of any repairs that are your fault. Damage done by someone else to your car should be covered by their insurance.

If you have a US comprehensive policy, it's almost certain that it covers rental cars too.

With regards to credit cards, even if it's "secondary" coverage, it might serve as primary if you don't have other insurance. (Check the terms.)

I've never been hassled by Avis about insurance -- "Do you want extra coverage?" "No." "Okay, initial here." Same for Hertz and National. Alamo and Enterprise, on the other hand, regularly gave me the hard sell on insurance so I don't rent from them any more.

Last edited by alanh; Oct 28, 05 at 12:51 am.
alanh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Oct 29, 05, 6:40 am   #10
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,028
actually its liability, comprehensive, collision.

Liability does cover what you do to other person/property.
collision covers collision damage to your car.
comprehensive covers theft and all other non collision damage to your car.

Rental cars combine Collision and comprehensive into Loss Damage waiver. A true comprehensive would be LDW+ALI+PAI= Liability, Comprehensive, Collision, Personal Injury Coverage.

I will put a post up and start a thread on insurance later.



Quote:
Originally Posted by alanh
The thing to remember is that there's two types of insurance: liability and comprehensive. Liability covers damage you may do to someone else, and often has state mandates. If the state minimum doesn't satisfy you, you can get the ALI (additional liability insurnace).

The actual car is covered by a comprehensive policy, and it's what the CDW/LDW covers. There is no state that requires it by law. Avis may want you to get it because it's very profitable for them, but there's no legal requirement. Be aware that if you have no other insurance at all, you will be repsonsible of the cost of any repairs that are your fault. Damage done by someone else to your car should be covered by their insurance.

If you have a US comprehensive policy, it's almost certain that it covers rental cars too.

With regards to credit cards, even if it's "secondary" coverage, it might serve as primary if you don't have other insurance. (Check the terms.)

I've never been hassled by Avis about insurance -- "Do you want extra coverage?" "No." "Okay, initial here." Same for Hertz and National. Alamo and Enterprise, on the other hand, regularly gave me the hard sell on insurance so I don't rent from them any more.
ezmonee is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Bookmarks


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 8:01 pm.