Air France flight, diverted from BEY to AMM[, has landed at LCA]
Aug 21, 2012, 3:38 pm
#91
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To go by what I pieced together from various forums it seems that indeed the plane did not make an emergency landing in DAM but landed there to avoid being in an emergency situation later on in the flight, which was not to be excluded given the "behaviour" of Syrian ATC up to that point.
Aug 28, 2012, 10:21 am
#92
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L'Express publishes another article on this topic, saying questions remains and an official investigation has been started.
Too much emotions to get solid informations, though. Governmental position is still that AF decided on their own not to land in BEY and select Amman instead of Larnaca, while AF is still, AFAIK, saying they were in contact with them.
Too much emotions to get solid informations, though. Governmental position is still that AF decided on their own not to land in BEY and select Amman instead of Larnaca, while AF is still, AFAIK, saying they were in contact with them.
Aug 28, 2012, 10:28 am
#93
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Car les Syriens vont montrer une rare mauvaise volonté. Changements de cap, virage à 270 degrés... Durant trente minutes, les instructions s'enchaînent, aussi incohérentes les unes que les autres. "Ils sont en train de nous balader", grimace le commandant, les yeux rivés sur l'indicateur de carburant. Car le niveau baisse. Dangereusement.
(...)
Mayday! Mayday!" dit-il dans la radio. Le signal de détresse. Un avion qui lance un tel SOS a la priorité absolue pour se poser. En théorie. Car on ne peut pas dire que ce message émeut les Syriens. "Malgré le Mayday, le contrôle aérien syrien a continué d'être peu coopératif", écrira plus tard le pilote dans son rapport.
(...)
Mayday! Mayday!" dit-il dans la radio. Le signal de détresse. Un avion qui lance un tel SOS a la priorité absolue pour se poser. En théorie. Car on ne peut pas dire que ce message émeut les Syriens. "Malgré le Mayday, le contrôle aérien syrien a continué d'être peu coopératif", écrira plus tard le pilote dans son rapport.
Last edited by JOUY31; Aug 28, 2012 at 10:44 am
Aug 28, 2012, 10:48 am
#94
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Yes, we have been reading conflicting articles (and accounts) about the "Mayday" status. I hope the investigation will shed light on what happened. Transmissions are recorded (I guess, they mention it in crash-related investigation) so the investigators won't need to hear the Syrian version to make their mind.
Aug 28, 2012, 1:14 pm
#95
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Indeed. I can't help thinking that we have probably been very very near a disaster. It is only a guess, but I suspect the Syrian ATC almost certainly got in touch with Syrian political authorities and I think that ultimately, the 'ransom' AF had to pay was probably a comparatively very tolerable outcome.
Aug 29, 2012, 1:04 am
#96
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Sorry to say but the article from the Express has numerous factual errors. Obviously written by people with little understanding of route planning and fuel management or not checked by people who do.
Given its "dramatizing" style I am not surprised that the emphasis was put on sensations rather than on complex technical facts.
Given its "dramatizing" style I am not surprised that the emphasis was put on sensations rather than on complex technical facts.
Aug 29, 2012, 4:00 am
#97
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Sorry to say but the article from the Express has numerous factual errors. Obviously written by people with little understanding of route planning and fuel management or not checked by people who do.
Given its "dramatizing" style I am not surprised that the emphasis was put on sensations rather than on complex technical facts.
Given its "dramatizing" style I am not surprised that the emphasis was put on sensations rather than on complex technical facts.
But it is highly surprising that AF decided to fly to AMM knowing that the have no flight authorization over Syria. One needs not be a political expert to know that Syria is in civil war using aircrafts to fight rebels, that France has suspended its diplomatic relations with Syria and keep trying to push Assad away, that the Syrians are highly suspicious of any possible trick (including arm delivery to the other side). Expecting to get clearance to fly over Syria within a few minutes is day dreaming.
Expecting to fly almost-unannounced over Israel and then getting from Israel flight zone to Jordanian air zone semi-announced is equally astounding. All that while there was a safe flight route to LCA!
Expecting Syrian ATC to be business as usual in those war circumstances is totally naive too. It took DAM ATC a few minutes to authorize landing, but France is an enemy of the current regime, fighting is taking place near the airport, and suddenly this AF plane comes out of nowhere, with no approved flight plan, wants to go to AMM and suddenly change their mind cries Mayday (or not) and ask for emergency landing in DAM while BEY is 55 miles away. Must have been a difficult Syrian political decision to let the plane land.
What surprises me is that the Syrian military did not search the plane as they easily could. There must have been a lot of political interaction during the two hours she spent on the ground at DAM. If the plane had been impounded for illegally landing there...
But again, I am just a common man regarding these issues.
Aug 29, 2012, 6:17 am
#98
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I understand that there are complex technical facts and I know nothing about those.
But it is highly surprising that AF decided to fly to AMM knowing that the have no flight authorization over Syria. One needs not be a political expert to know that Syria is in civil war using aircrafts to fight rebels, that France has suspended its diplomatic relations with Syria and keep trying to push Assad away, that the Syrians are highly suspicious of any possible trick (including arm delivery to the other side). Expecting to get clearance to fly over Syria within a few minutes is day dreaming.
Expecting to fly almost-unannounced over Israel and then getting from Israel flight zone to Jordanian air zone semi-announced is equally astounding. All that while there was a safe flight route to LCA!
Expecting Syrian ATC to be business as usual in those war circumstances is totally naive too. It took DAM ATC a few minutes to authorize landing, but France is an enemy of the current regime, fighting is taking place near the airport, and suddenly this AF plane comes out of nowhere, with no approved flight plan, wants to go to AMM and suddenly change their mind cries Mayday (or not) and ask for emergency landing in DAM while BEY is 55 miles away. Must have been a difficult Syrian political decision to let the plane land.
What surprises me is that the Syrian military did not search the plane as they easily could. There must have been a lot of political interaction during the two hours she spent on the ground at DAM. If the plane had been impounded for illegally landing there...
But again, I am just a common man regarding these issues.
But it is highly surprising that AF decided to fly to AMM knowing that the have no flight authorization over Syria. One needs not be a political expert to know that Syria is in civil war using aircrafts to fight rebels, that France has suspended its diplomatic relations with Syria and keep trying to push Assad away, that the Syrians are highly suspicious of any possible trick (including arm delivery to the other side). Expecting to get clearance to fly over Syria within a few minutes is day dreaming.
Expecting to fly almost-unannounced over Israel and then getting from Israel flight zone to Jordanian air zone semi-announced is equally astounding. All that while there was a safe flight route to LCA!
Expecting Syrian ATC to be business as usual in those war circumstances is totally naive too. It took DAM ATC a few minutes to authorize landing, but France is an enemy of the current regime, fighting is taking place near the airport, and suddenly this AF plane comes out of nowhere, with no approved flight plan, wants to go to AMM and suddenly change their mind cries Mayday (or not) and ask for emergency landing in DAM while BEY is 55 miles away. Must have been a difficult Syrian political decision to let the plane land.
What surprises me is that the Syrian military did not search the plane as they easily could. There must have been a lot of political interaction during the two hours she spent on the ground at DAM. If the plane had been impounded for illegally landing there...
But again, I am just a common man regarding these issues.
What you write is now more or less accepted that indeed it was an over-reaction by AF not to land in BEY (give that assessment the benefit of hindsight) and an error of judgment to divert to AMM instead of LCA (that was an error at the moment of making the decision, nothing to do with hindsight). AF weighed the convenience of an active station in AMM higher than the possible risk of encountering problems over Syria.
AF planes fly over Syria very often and so do those of other companies from "enemy countries" But usually at an altitude of >30'000ft. (I've been over Syria at least once a week in the past months, on planes registered in France, Germany, the UK, Qatar, the UAE - all countries not exactly friendly to the Syrian regime, although some still officially fly to DAM).
Aug 29, 2012, 10:50 am
#99
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Not your logic is flawed, the article's fact based is flawed.
What you write is now more or less accepted that indeed it was an over-reaction by AF not to land in BEY (give that assessment the benefit of hindsight) and an error of judgment to divert to AMM instead of LCA (that was an error at the moment of making the decision, nothing to do with hindsight).
What you write is now more or less accepted that indeed it was an over-reaction by AF not to land in BEY (give that assessment the benefit of hindsight) and an error of judgment to divert to AMM instead of LCA (that was an error at the moment of making the decision, nothing to do with hindsight).
Aug 30, 2012, 7:41 am
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Agree. I had baked that into my argument of "it was an error to deviate to AMM instead of LCA". What made that error an error was the fact that the fuel planning for that alternate seems not to have been foreseen sufficient fuel for all kinds of zig-zag in that "hot" region of the world.