ironmanjt

That's the mystery. It's well-known Israel won't allow landing/overflight without prior clearance unless emergency is declared. Question is: why wouldn't Captain declare emergency and try that route?

San Gottardo

You mean the barrack bombings in the 1980s? Now I understand why the Turks are in danger, after all they colonialized the country up until 1918. Unless of course we believe that going back so far in history is irrelevant.

So the tradeoff is "there is a chance that a road blockade on the way to the airport whose aim is to block traffic actually might threaten people in the airport and might lead to a marginal chance that French nationals might get kidnapped, and then we don't know who the kidnappers are" vs. "we land in the middle of a war zone, in a country which is openly hostile to France, we face much higher dangers for passengers, but at least we know who it was". Also, since the hostage taking has happened, then AF should also stop all subsequent flights, which it didn't.

As it turns out August 15th and the holiday period was a day when only junior decision takers were present at the Quai d'Orsay, and it emerges that communication and assessment of the situation was not optimal.

That is the one big question. The decision not to land in BEY may be doubtful and with hindsight it is always easier to judge. Fair enough, the decision takers could at most be accused of being overcautious, and if they had gone to somewhere safe the end of the story would have been "a lot of hassle and one day delay for an overcautious decision". Unpleasant, but not more.

However, even without hindsight, chosing AMM over LCA is a wrong decision. LCA is closer, does not involve flying over a war zone, with the possibility of having to land in the war country. A captain should always think about the diversion of the diversion. Even taking the fuel situation out of the equation, imagine there is an ATC failure at AMM or some other reason why the airport has to close, then what? Fly to DAM. At least in that moment the captain should have said "no, it's less dangerous to land in BEY than in DAM and certainly less dangerous to divert to LCA". Because if LCA has to close, there still would be Paphos as another airport big enough to handle that type of plane and incident.

The decision not to land in BEY may be explained by "rapidly evolving events seen from Paris", fair enough. But what is it that happens on the ground that makes them decide to choose AMM over LCA? The two are unrelated.

I think the "asking for money to pay for fuel" cannot really be blamed on AF, it is just bad luck that the provisions usually taken did not work in this case. But they shouldn't have found themselves in this situation in the first place.

Thus, as more facts emerge, it becomes a debatable decision not to land in BEY (and overcautious in hindsight, but hindsight is always smarter), an error of judgement not to take LCA as an alternate, and just bad luck following prior debatable/bad decisions, but in isolation nothing that could have been avoided.

San Gottardo

Just reading the French press. They're all over the fact that the crew asked passengers to chip in. Interesting. No one seems to mind the fact that they went to Damascus.

I'll have lunch tomorrow with three people who were on that flight. Maybe some more details will emerge.

Richelieu

Well, they were on a flight going to Lebanon, where the French know the likely outcome is death anyway, as people there remember that crusades were started in Clermont, you know, so BEY or DAM...

More details and perhaps a more truthful account of what happened. In some articles, something ludicrous:

Roughly, a passenger said that the captain considered sea landing. I seriously doubt that Israel would have refused to open its airspace toward HFA (74 miles from BEY) in an out-of-fuel situation resulting in this being considered...

BEYFlyer

I still believe that the decision to divert and not land in Beirut was a VERY BAD CALL. Take it from someone who is living here in Beirut and knows the situation on the ground. My uncle arrived that same evening. He was "stranded" for a couple of hours at the airport waiting for the roads to be cleared. That was it! Another friend of mine arrived that evening too. He walked towards the "sit in"/blocked road/whatever with his luggage, crossed it and took a cab home. That's what most people end up doing. Inconvenient I know.

Just to give you a brief about what happened or is happening. The "Free Syria" army kidnapped a whole bunch of Lebanese pilgrims on their way back from Iraq (by land obviously via Syria). Why? The "Free Syria" army is mostly Sunni Muslims. The pilgrims; all Shia'a Muslims. Who "supports" the current person "in power" in Syria? Hezbollah. And Hezbollah are Shia'a Muslims. I digress... Anyway...

They have been held captive (or as they are calling it as "guests") for the last 3 months. Earlier this week, another person was kidnapped in Syria (another Shia'a). His family decided to take things into their own hands and kidnapped a whole bunch of Syrians, some of whom are known to be allied with the "Free Syria" army. A Turkish citizen was also taken in the hopes that Turkey would speed up negotiations with those who took all those Lebanese people (since our government is really not capable of doing much right now thanks to all the internal fighting and name-calling that is going on between our esteemed politicians). Very tribal you see. Not saying that I agree with this type of action.

The families of all these kidnapped people have been taking to the streets regularly. When they want attention, they block the airport road. And trust me, that gets them all the attention they need. Again, a couple of hours, and everyone goes back home. People have been resorting to this kind of action for some time now to demonstrate against everything from high fuel prices to chronic electricity shortages.

Again, I am not saying I agree with any of these actions. It certainly doesn't paint a good picture and it really is a shame. I blame our government and all the politicians in this country for their lack of action. Every single one of them is singing from a different sheet of music and the freaking conductor is out for lunch...

nicolas75

"Airplane!" Some of the passengers of Air France Paris-Beirut flight on Wednesday night may have had in mind this crazy American film of 1980. Not that pilot proficiency is in doubt. Far from it. But given the unspeakable misfortune of travelers on that flight, it is legitimate to ask if the captain did not land a another planet ... Thinking also applies equally well to the general management of Air France in Paris ...

Estimating, in the current explosive situation in Syria, that Damascus is safer than Beirut can be explained by the (sad) fact that those who took the decision of diversion in the direction of the Syrian capital are completely disconnected from the realities. Is it possible they are unaware that French leaders continue to condemn loudly - and rightly so - the crimes committed by the Syrian regime? Is it possible they do not know at this point that more than half of the Lebanese are in open conflict for several years with the Damascus regime? Is it possible that the captain did not know that French ambassador in Beirut was on board? Or perhaps those who took the decision to land at Damascus knew that the aircraft in question was a plane from Air "France"! How, therefore, the management of the company can demonstrate it so lightly endangering the safety of not only the ambassador of France, but also numerous Lebanese passengers? Unless the management does not take the trouble to follow the news, or even just listen to the public statements of French leaders - Laurent Fabius in mind - to realize that the regime in Damascus behaves in a bestial manner and acts with no calm when it reaches the hands of anyone who is critical about it.

The statement issued by the company said yesterday, of course, the goal was to land in Amman and thatnthe pilot discovered he did not have enough kerosene and was therefore forced to land in Damascus! Clearly, what management tells us is that there does not exist a gauging system for determining the quantity of kerosene left ... Or that the commander is novice and he could not judge the distance between Beirut and Amman ...

But apart from these considerations, the story does not say why, initially, the plane has not landed in Beirut, as others have done elsewhere, while the protests occurred Wednesday were not more dramatic than other similar incidents that have unfortunately increased in recent times on the way to the airport. Why Lebanese militia are now more dangerous than the war situation and the murderous madness raging in Damascus? And no one has yet explained why the plane was not diverted to Larnaca rather than Amman and Damascus ...

Source: L'Orient Le Jour (in French)

nicolas75

I would not agree to blame Air France for its decision not to land at Beirut International Airport, destination of the flight from Paris on Wednesday evening.

We must be humble and honest and acknowledge reality. The reputation of this airport has become very poor, because of the parallel state in which it is now and which flouts every day, through iTs security perimeter, the authority and dignity of what is still called the Lebanese state.

On Wednesday the entire area where the airport is situated suddenly becomes under control of unscrupulous mafias, ready for all the atrocities and crimes.

The world takes knowledge of this situation, and Air France also in the first place. It is the company's duty. It avoids the airport Lebanese themselves love to hate. What is incomprehensible yet it is the misjudgment of Air France about the safety hundred times worse at the airport in Damascus, instead of landing at Larnaca. Then yes, we can say that officials of Air France were on the moon Wednesday evening.

Source: L'Orient Le Jour (in French)

Braniff

Spot on. Not a frequent visitor to Beirut but I would trust French risk assessment of Lebanon more than any other. The fact that the French ambassador was on the flight leads me to believe it received top attention, not some August lackey.

The decision to go to Damascus is however very puzzling to me.

nicolas75

The Air France plane from Paris, which was diverted to Cyprus on Wednesday, via Damascus, finally landed yesterday at the Beirut airport. Families and passengers crying for aberration and denounce the decision of the airline to pass through the Syrian capital in a state of war rather than Beirut where other flights have landed normally.

Rather sinister atmosphere yesterday at the Beirut airport - when it should teeming with life at this time of year - in the wake of protests that blocked the road to the airport. A negative picture that is unfortunately part of the lives of Lebanese for few months now.

At the terminal, a hundred people, including taxi drivers, waiting patiently for the arrival of travelers, friends or family members willing to spend few days in Beirut. In the distance, a young teenager, flowers in hand, paces talking on the phone. "The plane is expected to arrive in half an hour," he said to his companion.

It is 4pm. The young man, Jean, is waiting for his girlfriend, a French woman of 19 who is making her first visit to Lebanon. She was on board the Air France plane from Paris which was diverted to Cyprus on Wednesday night, because of "the rapid deterioration of the security situation in Beirut," as said in a statement of the airline. Some 174 passengers were on board, among whom the ambassador of France Patrice Paoli and eleven crew members.

"I've been here since yesterday (Wednesday)," said Jean, who says that this is the second time he bought some flowers to his girlfriend, the first having withered. "On the board, it was announced that the plane was ahead of schedule, he says. Fifteen minutes before the scheduled landing at 21:45, it was announced that the flight was canceled. "A sense of panic has invaded Jean and all the other families present.

"It was a shock. We did not understand what was happening, says Paul, who is waiting for his brother. We approached the MEA desk which asked us to ask at Air France desk. After an interminable wait, we were told that the plane was diverted to Amman "for security reasons". Back home, my wife told me that his brother was able to call. To tell him that the plane landed in Damascus and the crew asked them to keep the cover closed windows, turn off cell phones and lights. When he could speak again, several hours later, he explained that the crew even asked them to look in their wallets to pay the bill and fuel. For some time, they believed that they were taken hostage. '

For several hours, the families and friends of the passengers were in a total uncertainty of their fate. "In the evening, we called the Crisis centre of the French Foreign Affairs says Simon, who was waiting for his brother. We said: "They are in Damascus. The situation is critical, but we try to do something. "Towards 2am, we were called back to tell us that the plane flew to Larnaca in Cyprus. '

4:25 p.m.. The eyes of the families are again glued to the board. Nothing indicates that the aircraft has arrived yet. "I've been waiting for 1:30pm protested Helen. The aircraft was landing at 12pm. Then we were told it was delayed and will arrive at 4:25pm. Now we are told that there will be at 5:30pm. What happens is really bad: it Was not the right way to treat people. '

Protests rise immediately fromthe group, followed by a slew of questions: "How come the plane landed at Damascus, a banned country on war? " " Why Damascus while Beirut is a few kilometers from the Syrian capital? "" Why has only Air France decided not to land in Beirut when other flights between the European Union and even those Arab countries have well landed at AIB? '

"I think the situation in Lebanon has been exaggerated and wrong choice was made, said Paul. Air France has put the lives of passengers in danger, not to mention the situation in Damascus. Families were shocked by the lack of professionalism of this company. '

A remark shared by the small group gathered at the terminal. "We formed a group of fifty people and have a petition online against Air France said a woman who requested anonymity. First, the company has not deigned to appoint representatives to reassure parents when an emergency unit was set up in New York to assist passengers in the aftermath of the volcanic eruption in Iceland. But perhaps because then it was not Lebanese? Second, has the real risk to choose between Lebanon and Syria, a country on war, has been measured? Third, the MEA has a code share with Air France. So normally and legally MEA is jointly responsible with Air France. MEA told they are aware of anything. They told the parents that the plane was diverted to Amman when in reality it was in Damascus! '


5:39 p.m.. The plane landed. Families can finally breathe. Ten minutes later, the passengers begin to emerge. Relieved, happy to see their relatives and friends, they fail not, however, to denounce "the lack of professionalism of Air France." "We did not get any explanation on why we landed in Damascus and rather than Beiru, laments a passenger. Arrived in Damascus, we were asked to delete videos from our phones, keep them off and lower window panels. '

"What happened is absurd, says Chryssoula. For a while, we thought it was a diversion of the aircraft. Arrived in Damascus, the crew first made an announcement to business class passengers asking for cash to pay the price of fuel. Then the call was extended to all passengers before finally finding an alternative solution. In Larnaca, we stayed on the bus for over an hour before we finally arrived in Nicosia. No explanation was provided to us. Moreover, until the last minute, no representative of Air France came forward to give us any justification or apology! Today (yesterday) we stayed more than two hours in Larnaca. We do not even know what time the plane would take off. '

"Landing in Damascus was frowned upon, says Amine Haddad, MD. The security service of Air France has banned the plane to landin Beirut and was diverted to Amman. But with the ban on Syrian airspace, it had to make a big detour. The captain noted that there was not enough fuel to cross this distance. He thought of making an emergency landing at sea. Furthermore I participated, along with a few passengers, safety procedures provided for this purpose by the members of the crew. Meanwhile, the captain took the courageous decision to launch a "mayday" (call to indicate that the aircraft is in danger, Ed) requesting crash landing in Damascus. Syrian authorities agreed, but demanded a passenger list. Besides military vehicles were on the tarmac. We learned later that the French Foreign affairs intervened to prevent the Syrians to get on the plane, to settle the case for fuel, and ask the Cypriot authorities the permission to land in Larnaca. The takeoff of Damascus took place in total darkness. And Dr. Haddad concluded: "The crew of Air France was remarkable, both affable and closes to maintain calm. But what was impressive is the behavior of passengers. There were no spills or hysterics. '

Source: L'Orient Le Jour

Richelieu

I find a lot of articles on this topic from L'Orient-Le Jour to be highly debatable. Is it usually a respected publication?

JOUY31

I believe it is. But on this specific issue, it tends to take the view that it is ridiculous to see the current situation as anything but normal. BEYFlier has provided an insightful view into the local perspective. Whether it is true can be debated. The fact is that the perception from some countries (the Gulf states who ordered their nationals out of Lebanon, the U.S. who subsequently warned of increased risks to their own nationals and France, of course) may be different.

nicolas75

The United States Embassy in Beirut asked U.S. citizens in Lebanon to increase precautionary measures, citing increased threats against them.

"The U.S. Embassy has received reports of increased threats of attack against American citizens in Lebanon," said a statement, while several Gulf countries this week asked their nationals to leave the country after the removal of dozens of Syrians by Shiites.

Source: Le Figaro

nicolas75

The United States have supported the efforts of the Lebanese authorities to maintain calm in the country and stressed that they had not had the same reaction as the Gulf countries. "Our concern in Lebanon is first to prevent the conflict spilling over Syria and Lebanon and to make sure sectarian tensions in Syria do not affect its neighbor", said the spokesman for the State Department Victoria Nuland. "We have the appropriate warnings regarding travel" in Lebanon, she said, "but we have not gone as far as the Saudis."

France has also applied the precautionary principle. Air France flight to Beirut has been diverted to Amman on Wednesday evening to replenish fuel before landing in Cyprus, told AFP a spokesman for the airline . "As a precaution, Air France has diverted the flight to Amman as the security conditions are not good in Beirut," especially on the road to the airport, said the spokesman. Shiite protesters blocked the effect on airport road with burning tires, making access difficult. "Air France did not want to take the risk of leaving blocked its 200 passengers at the airport which has no hotels," the source said.

Source: Le Journal du Dimanche

San Gottardo

Very frequent visitor to Beirut here, in fact going there today. From that I can tell you

- that the assessment of the situation on the ground is at least questionable. But fair enough, to each his own
- that L'Orient le Jour is a "canard", more emotions and passions about tarnished Lebanese pride than a good understanding of facts in complicated/technical matters, thus what is written there should be discounted by a "emotional multiplier" to take out some of the drama the Lebs like to make of themselves
- that the French influence in Leb has decreased dramatically since the end of Chirac's presidency. Sarko never took a real interest and France's presence and it being a "point of reference" in matters political and economic has decreased significantly
- what happened in the civil war (e.g. targeting of Americans and French, amongst others) is completely irrelevant today. What really played a role are the things described in an earlier post by BEYflyer

The story about the "August lackey" comes directly from someone at the Quai d'Orsay who also gave me the names of people who usually deal with that matter and who were now absent. Not saying that this is the only element, but it contributed.

Whatever the reasons were for not landing in BEY, it is the choice of AMM over LCA and not having enough fuel for a designated alternate/only having enough fuel under circumstances which aren't certain to be happening are the critical questions.

San Gottardo

From Le Figaro (sorry, in French only):


Le ministre des Affaires étrangères qualifie de «bêtise» la décision de Air France mercredi de faire poser momentanément l'avion à Damas. L'ambassadeur de France au Liban ainsi que des personnalités libanaises hostiles à Assad se trouvaient dans l'appareil.

Laurent Fabius a jugé «incompréhensible et dangereuse» la décision mercredi soir de la compagnie Air France de poser à Damas un avion reliant Paris à Beyrouth. Le ministre des Affaires étrangères a expliqué au Parisien que parmi les 200 passagers de l'avion se trouvaient l'ambassadeur de France au Liban et diverses personnalités libanaises hostiles au régime de Bachar el-Assad.

«Imaginez un instant que les autorités syriennes aient fouillé l'avion et vérifié les identités. C'était une énorme bêtise». Le ministre compte demander des explications à la compagnie sur le déroulement des faits.

Mercredi, la compagnie Air France avait décidé de dérouter ce vol à destination de Beyrouth vers Chypre. Des manifestants bloquaient en effet la route de l'aéroport de Beyrouth, qui ne possède pas d'hôtels pour accueillir les voyageurs. L'avion a donc poursuivi son chemin par mesure de sécurité, mais a dû se poser à Damas par manque de carburant. L'équipage souhaitait se poser en Jordanie, mais les contrôleurs aériens ne l'ont pas autorisé à changer la route de l'avion.