PlanetYYZ

Let's use comparing apples to oranges (AC and airline I don't know ( B ).

Let's compare the market in discussion and the current setup of that market. A hub and non hub (pretty thick spoke) for those that still refer to it as such.

YEG-LHR goes away for the winter, YYC-LHR drops from a daily behemoth 777-300 to a 767-300 as has happened with AC for winter 14/15.

Loads on YYC-LHR drop (rather drastically) over the winter, AC has it's mini hub (cause that's basically what YYC is). To keep LHR optimized you fill a now thin route with extra bums at your "hub" since local demand has now also dropped.

Offcourse it's not going to be vice versa as it doesn't make sense to pull from your "hub". The population argument bares no relevance to the discussion as both cities have basically the same population demographic.

What I see makes sense, although it really bothers YEG folk who feel shunned by AC. They are indeed shunned but not intentionally as some have stated. It's business but what gets me is saying that AC service reflects the Alberta market when in reality it does not. Roles reversed it would YYC whining about service.

AC has concentrated it's service at the southern airport because it's the Alberta hub for AC.

To insist that no other carriers can make YEG work because if the supposed example made by AC has no reflection on what is really going on in YEG. But so many of us are lost in the flag carriers role that it must reflect the reality of the market.

Not true.

Sunny Day

Well said Planet. CloudB, what's wrong in your mind with a low cost carrier - your reference to FI? Sounds to me you prefer high cost and high airfare, ex., AC? Do you look down on people who prefer to save money? If I can fly somewhere in economy for $700 with an excellent connection in KEF instead of $1100 via LHR, is that not a choice that 99 out of 100 people would make (with you being the exception)? May be AC has priced itself out of this market rather than the market doesn't support the service.

Let me see, Icelandair has managed to carve a substantial TATL presence using their strategically well positioned location in KEF to carry people from all over the USA and Canada to Europe. I witnessed 9 American inbound flights arriving in the morning I arrived in Iceland, all around the same time from MSP, EWR, SEA, PDX, ANC, MCO, IAD, BOS, DEN. They are expanding the part of the terminal where all the N.A. flights land. Whether 3x, 4x, or 6x a week, fact is FI is making a go of it and KLM will be joining the party. That must grate on a few people on this forum.

Sunny Day

Is that your assumption? Where is the evidence? AC cancelled winter service because it needs to fill that half empty YYC LHR plane with connecting passengers from YEG in order to make it "viable". United is in a mess and it has cancelled tons of routes impacting many cities. Not a reflection of the performance of the EWR route. I seem to remember you also doubted that FI would make the service work out of YEG when it started. Let's see how wrong you are yet again this time.

It is great that people in Alberta including the north and south now have more choices to choose from. Sky team, FI, One World have filled in the void left by AC. Competition is great for consumers, something we truly miss here in Canada when it comes to domestic routes. Still grates me that AC charged me $970 dollars for YEG YYZ RT last month, even though it was paid by my company.

CloudsBelow

Who’s claiming AC should pull YYC pax to fill YEG flights? The question is Edmonton’s ability to fill business configured TATL flights profitably
Yet Ottawa, a city within 200 miles of AC’s two largest hubs, maintains daily (often double-daily) TATL service throughout the year.
Airlines send their aircraft where it's profitable for them to do so.
I’m suggesting other carriers can’t make YEG work because they’ve decided to pass on all opportunities to serve Edmonton to date.
I have zero problems with any carrier in any market and am happy FI seems to be doing well in YEG.
Why is it EDM locals always eager to trumpet all the disposable income yet unwilling to admit they can’t/won’t spend it on airfares that warrant the service they feel they deserve? Further, when an airline basically tells them as much, they are hugely insulted and insist this is somehow personal and not related to the airline's returns on the route?
Umm, the cancellation/pull-down of the routes?
Is that your assumption? Where is the evidence?
You believe airlines cut profitable flying? Why wasn’t YOWLHR cancelled to make YUL/YYZ “super profitable”.
So, United cancellation of YEGEWR was not related to route performance but because they're a "mess". And AC's seasonal cancellation of YEGLHR was not related to route performance but becuause they wanted to improve YYCLHR performance? The aviation world conspires against Edmonton

BTW, UA clearly stated YEGEWR was not meeting performance expectations.
“The flights haven’t met our expectations,” United spokesperson Mary Ryan wrote in an email.

Even EIAA admitted as much :
Edmonton International Airport spokeswoman Heather Hamilton said United has been a longtime supporter of Edmonton and remains an important carrier.
“At 560,000 seats, they’re still a major player in the Edmonton market and we expect them to continue to be a player, so this is the story of a flight, not the story of United’s relationship with Edmonton

Show me where I said that. In fact, I believe I said FI’s lower-cost model would help them immensely in a market like Edmonton.

TheGreatestX

Congratulations to Edmonton, 17 weekly flights to Europe next summer. Winter 2015/2016 will be interesting.

PlanetYYZ

I'm not sure if you've noticed but many airlines that offer a "premium" product are scaling back and moving more and more into a less premium product as demand is not what it once was. During the winter months yields suck for just about any airline offering a premium seat.

LH as a example pulled the plug on it's YYC operations as a result of yields as it stated. Even here in YYZ we are seeing less and less premium product over time by many carriers and lots of rouging by AC.

UA to EWR from YEG was likely dropped as a result of FI or atleast it contributed as the EWR flight was timed to meet UA TATL flights at EWR. That's a pretty thin route from Alberta as a whole as it cannot support much more than a single daily year round flight on a EMB-190 (AC) and summer only service by WS who has used a 736 most times on the route. So they lost UA's EWR flight, not a major loss in comparison to other growth. I seem to recall YYC losing MIA on WS after just one partial season of the flight launching.

I'm not sure where this slam Edmonton gig comes from but as observer it's really rather annoying to watch. KLM is entering the YEG market, good for them but why so Debbie downer about it?

I bet it's got incentives, just like BA, LH and oh you guessed it KL had when they launched YYC.

But I guess YYC is some super elite market that should have VIP configured Service? Oh wait that was tried, and never got off the ground...

Rant over.

upgradesecret

No
But
Calgary has the second highest concentration of head offices in Canada.
The average ticket price on most routes is higher than most other centres.
This gives the airlines the incentive to concentrate their flights there/ Why? Because they make money in Calgary.

Altaflyer

I suspect the Debbie downers know very well that YEG is being used to keep the YYC-LHR flight afloat over the winter as there is a significant portion of that flight that originates in YEG. We are not a hub for AC so they run the flight ex YYC. UA has been and continues to be a total mess. I just flew EWR and the flight was upgauged to a 320 with 12J full (did not look at the back). The flight was prone to MANY delays over the last year and service is very substandard. The breakfast they served in J would not be served to pets flying on quality carriers. UA is losing buckets of money overall - this is presumably not because they are making all the right calls!

Stranger

So there actually *are* international flights from YEG? Wow.

upgradesecret

I am sure that YYC-LHR could sustain itself just on Calgary originating traffic.
Something that Edmonton could not do!
Sure there is some YYC-LHR traffic that originates in Edmonton, just as some of the traffic originates in YVR, SFO, YXE, YQR etc. The Edmonton traffic helps with the top-off.

tcook052

A gentle reminder that this thread isn't about other posters or politics so several posts have been deleted. Please stick to the topic lest this thread wind up closed as the last such one did.

tcook052
Air Canada Forum Moderator

xLuther

Just flew YEG- EWR ( came back EWR- IAH-YEG) all paid J with wife. The YEG-EWR was packed , food ....well pretty bad, service erratic, wine choice was "the red" new wifi base entertainment was erratic, Same applied for other legs.

I have not flown much up until Sept this year due to personal issues, but now back to normal schedule, surprised how bad UA has gotten. All that said shutting flight down seems odd but UA is mess in general .

I'm back to avoiding them, end of year going to look at reducing Aeroplan/ AC as well

AA_EXP09

but UA gives you free upgrades on K fares if elite with them while the same cannot be said of AC.
Also I suspect that YEG is an easy UG...
(considering even exYVR, YYZ on AA I have never had a problem UGing-my only failed UGs were international using eVIP and some domestic flights...)

AA_EXP09

Yes, no one with the ability to expense things has ever had any audits, even when they have played by the rules...

FlyB

Well said...couldn't agree more. It's not (YEG) being overlooked, its about company structure.