I have seen (on Ebay for example) where an individual will sell an "empty envelope" and include a "free" Intl biz class ticket with it(say, a 90K AA mile award). Does anyone know if this really side-steps the airlines "sale or barter" restrictions?

Thanks.

OPM, c'mon, what do YOU think?

Yes, I guess you are right....

That on line firm quite specifically has wording on their site saying that cute terminology in no way diminishes any legal implications or responsibilites. VERY dangerous waters. We had a long debate on this earlier this month on UA board. It appears an airline "blitz" occured either as a result or by sheer co-incidence.

UA certs are all VOID if sold or bartered. Full stop. The higher the Elite level you are, the harder they hit you if detected - official UA comment.

See my post an hour ago today on this:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum50/HTML/003430.html


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~ Glen ~

[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 10-27-2000).]

Abraham Lincoln is said to have once asked someone "If you call a sheep's tail a leg, how many legs does a sheep have?" The other person answered "Five." "No," said Lincoln. "Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one."

Calling a sale a "gift" doesn't make it one either. The courts, if faced with this issue, would apply the "reasonable man" doctrine (so named in a less enlightened age) and conclude that anyone who really just wanted an empty envelope would get one more easily and cheaply elsewhere.

Well said. Selling these things is fraught with problems.

may be, but I can't believe this, it is illegal in the USA by your terminology.

It is for sure not illegal here in Switzerland - it is (against) UA Mileage Plus rules, and UA can (try) to apply the sanctions they have in their rules, but it is for sure not illegal over here.

[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited 10-28-2000).]

Even (daughter organizations of) UA sell miles for 2.5 cents a mile (and those miles afterwards can be exchanged into awards).

The original question was "Does anyone know if this really side-steps the airlines 'sale or barter' restrictions?" and legality/criminality were not, nor intended to be a part of my answer!

I stay away from such sales to avoid difficulties!

the topic's name is 'legal ......'

and as some Flyertalkers know and experienced, I make really gifts and stay away from bartering or selling - nor do I recommend it.

still - it is (at least in Switzerland) not illegal!

Rudi: Polite semantic argument (from the perspective of a US lawyer).

Legal, especially to non-lawyers, sometimes means "not criminal". But breaching a contract is "illegal" even if it isn't criminal.

Having said that, I am curious. Do you mean that under Swiss law there is no ability to enforce the terms of a contract in court? Or do you mean that under Swiss law there has been an affirmative determination that you are not required to adhere to the terms of the contract with airlines relating to awards?

Actually, to be even more semantic, it is not and never has been illegal to breach a contract. You actually have a right to breach a contract, but once you have exercised the right you have to pay the price, and the price is something that will be determined by the judge. The law governs the consequence of breaking a contract, but doesn't make it against the law to break a contract.

Similarly, by bartering or selling coupons you're not breaking the law or acting illegally. In fact, the airlines would claim (wrongly) that you're not even breaching a contract, since they initially claimed that FF miles etc had no value. What you do do is violate the conditions of the program, and allow the airline to bring into play the punitive measures they mention on every cert.

Gracious, the attorney's have ALL the FUN!

The sequence would typically work like this:

1. Somebody sells an award.

2. The airline finds out and takes measures such as invalidating the award, removing the seller from its FF program and canceling all of his/her miles.

3. The seller, being upset, having no recourse within the airline and being in the U.S. where people sue anyone for anything, sues the airline for doing so. This is where the legal system and the courts get into the act.

4. The courts then determine if the airline was within its rights per the program rules to do what it did, perhaps involving whether or not the rules were fair, properly announced and equitably enforced, and what it thinks a fair resolution is.

Some may think this is making a big deal over a small item like frequent flyer miles. We know better! (We also know the airline is within its rights to enforce rules that the members knew about in advance, so we don't sell awards.)

As legal advice this is worth at most what you paid for it, probably less.

Under swiss law, when I joined Mileage Plus (offered by UA Z�rich then) UA would have to provide me the rules/general conditions etc of their programs in one of the four official languages in Switzerland (German, French, Italian, Romantsch). They didn't (and couldn't at that time).

And I don't think I ever signed anything that I would like to see how US law should 'govern' over me when asking/buying/selling/offering Mileage Plus awards from/in Switzerland. May be I really should barter or sell/buy an award, and then officially report it to UA, and then hoping to have all the fun of reporting on this board afterwards on the legal consequences

Again, I love this discussion, but in general I really give away awards and miles as real presents/gifts (at least about 25 Flyertalkers could confirm this).

I find it somewhat funny the way a majority of my North American friends on and off this board, find it illegal to barter awards, but don't mind to lie daily (security-questions) when asked at check-in if they were in controle of their luggage etc (but they might have used a bell-boy, or left the luggage unattendet in the hotel room/lobby during breakfast, etc. etc.). PremEx, some time ago, replied to this thruthfully: yes, UA made me a 'frequent liar'!