yul36

One of the criteria of certification is the amount of time it takes for a fully loaded aircraft to be evacuated. The Rouge 319 may be chock a block, but it is no less safe than any mainline aircraft, or any on westjet. There are other human factors that may come into play, with a plane full of Kettles, but in theory everyone should be able to get out in under 2 minutes.

winnipegrev

Westjet 73Gs and Rouge 319s have the same number of doors, overwing exits - and passengers. I doubt one is much less safe than the other because of a small amount less legroom. There's probably a bottleneck at the exits anyway - exit time from rows likely has little impact.

Furthermore Rouge A321s have 4 real doors per side, vs an AC 320 or WS 738 with 2 tiny overwing exits and 2 regular doors per side to squeeze out of. I'd much rather have to evacuate an A321 than a 737.

What standard of 'minimum safety' is acceptable anyway? A WestJet 737 is less safe than a UA 737. A UA 737 is less safe than a privately equipped 737. Which is less safe than a C152 where everyone has their own exit.

How about if it fits the FAA safety rules (Boeing) or EASA rules (Airbus), the knowledgeable people who work there have determined people can evacuate within a sufficient time. Of which AC, ACr and WS are all under respective passenger limits.

Better not fly Sunwing or Air Transat though. They are right up against the manufacturer passenger limits.

yul36

Why Not fly Transat and Sunwing, they have the same all Y loads as many Euro low cost carriers and all passed certification. Same with Spirit and other high density carriers.

winnipegrev

It was dry humour if he was serious in avoiding Rouge for his safety concerns. I'm of the view all are safe enough (having passed certification) to not worry about it.

YYCfasha

This is possibly the most ridiculous post on FT for all of 2015, given the amount of material its quite the accomplishment Wpgjetse! Congrats!

Please do share your qualifications on what safety requirements exist for de-icing!

YQMYMM

I'm a bit late to the party addressing this one. Pretty simple reply though.

I'm not an industry insider nor an aviation safety expert. I cannot make an assessment of one airline's safety program vs. another.

YVR72

For anyone's interest, my AC 763 just blew by the deicing centre at YVR where 3 Westjet planes were being deiced.

Wpgjetse

I don't think so. Even the pax beside me on the flight from YWG was surprised Westjet was not de-icing. I don't think it's about qualifications, but a observation. Qualification would be about knowing the required regulation, which is the minimum requirements, where a observation is anything above minimum requirements, which is easily noticed.

winnipegrev

Just because one aircraft is being deiced doesn't mean all need to. Sometimes if parked overnight frost and ice accumulates whereas turns in the am don't suffer it. Or sometimes parked overnight they are clean in the morning, but the turns coming in pick up frost on the cold wings after landing in saturated air.

Noting who passes by the bay and who pulls in is pretty useless, especially if you don't know what the plane has been doing in the hours before.

Wpgjetse

All the aircraft were sitting on the ground for 45 to 60 min.

Ace Cdn

There are so many variables in this scenario you can't compare it apples to apples.

Wpgjetse

The variables are basically the same. It's not like one plane sitting over night and another one sitting on the ground for 45 to 60 mins on a turn around.

Frequentlander

Meanwhile...back on topic....

I made the switch from AC to WS (for domestic) last year and the notable thing for me is transparency. When I fly WS, I know what I am going to get both in terms of what the seat/seat configuration is AND the FF program.

With WS, I will be on a 737. With AC its more of a roll of the dice. I buy Plus seats and for me that's fine. Sure, AC J would be nice but I'm kind of tired of playing upgrade roulette, losing and getting in the back on a 10 wide 777 to YYZ. Those seats are so cramped it's probably not legal to transport livestock in them.

IFE that is being rolled out on WS is fine and I bring my out tablet with my own stuff on it anyway.

The FF program on WS may not be spectacular but it is transparent...."pay X, get Y". I just simply interest in playing the Aeroplan game.

In-flight catering is of zero importance to me. I try not to eat in the air on flights under six or so hours.....and I've never been disappointed with that choice.

All this talk about de-iceing is of little value. The pilot has the responsibility to ensure the aircraft is airworthy. End of story.

Fiordland

For years I was flew AC (averaged between 35k and 50k per year). Based in Saskatoon with a number of international flights it was either stick with AC or Delta. About two years ago relocated to Victoria. More options and the compelling features of Aeroplan reduced over years I now fly based on best schedule and comfort. End result is domestically it is a good 50/50 split between Westjet and AC. Trans boarder it is mostly Alaskan and International it is a split between AC and Delta.

On the AC-WestJet front:

- WestJet has ok aircraft in the 737 and Q400. (Have not tried their 767 yet). Domestically AC is all over the map, some aircraft are good, some great some on par with WestJet.

- Food AC hot offering beats WJ.

- Silly rules and fees. They are on par. However the WestJet staff are more apologetic and able to apply common sense. The AC staff are more fearfull of doing the right thing to correct a problem.

- IROP. For years this was one of the things I hated about WestJet. When you missed a flight you were pouched they could only solve the problem by putting you on another WJ flight and with a small network operated by generally larger aircraft it was harder for them to do something reasonable. AC just had more frequent smaller aircraft running around and access to united etc. It has changed AC And WestJet are now closer to each other in being able to handle IROP. Like the US airlines (and CP and AC in the past) what we need as consumers is for AC and Westjet to interline with each other and start to reboot passengers onto the other airline in IROP conditions.

- Wine. AC has better wine in J, that WestJet has in economy. I think AC also has better coffee.

- Seat. AC use to have better seats. Now they are moving in the same direction.

- Interline capability and IT. They are both messed up. It is hard to say which one is worst. AC after being a partner for years with United is still not capable of printing a United boarding pass with the zone boarding number and to add insult to injury United can't issue a AC boarding pass with its zone boarding number correct either. WestJet and American seam to still have challenging printing each others boarding pass or adjusting seat assignments. At least AC and WestJet staff understand the IT does not work correctly and are accommodating. Try checking in at an American counter at a place lice JFK on a flight operated by American and issued on a WestJet flight number. They insist you must try to use the silly kiosks that do not work at least five times before an agent let you go into the line to talk a real person.

- Frequently flyer program is still better with AC.

My preference these days based on customer service is:
- Alaska
- AC and WestJet tied
- Delta
- American and united tied

tracon

I don't think AC has higher standards, they are just more paranoid.
Paranoia in the name of safety is more dangerous than thinking your way to safety.
The simplest description of the regulations, the a/c must have a clean wing.
No frost/snow/ice build up.

Culture.
WS has the profit sharing mentality. De-icing costs money. The pilots will make sure the wing is clean as per regulations. De-ice if required.
AC will deice because no one will question a pilot being safe.

My favourite is watching AC34 & CX888 de-ice when it's +10.
This has something to do with the cooled fuel in the wing from the long inbound flight.