Airmiles redemption on Westjet -- Airmiles scamming?
Sep 16, 2010, 1:43 pm
#31
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Join Date: Nov 1999
Programs: FB Silver going for Gold
Posts: 21,807
Years and years ago, someone on another Canadian consumer forum put it that it was more like collecting AirYards, AirFeet or even AirInches. And the fees and mileage requirements weren't so high back then.
Sep 22, 2010, 5:33 pm
#32
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Delta, BC
Posts: 1,646
It's buried in the retail fare? Then, as I tried to point out, it is not by definition a "sur"charge.
If something's charged on top of the retail fare, it's a surcharge. If it's IN the retail fare, then it's, well, it IS the retail fare.
Ultimately if you agree that it's a numbers shell game, then I think you must agree with my basic premise (and therefore can't call me "Wrong"!
)
First of all, a "flow through" would be, by definition, a defined cost paid to an outside party, where the exact sum goes to that party (not Air Miles, not Westjet) for a specified item. That could legitimately be an AIF, or a customs inspection user fee. "Fuel surcharge", though, is airline revenue -- pure and simple. It's not paid directly to Shell or Esso. It's not a flow through.
Ultimately, though, I think you misunderstood me. Air Miles does not "have" to pass on any tax or surcharge to their end customer. Flow-through or not. That's entirely their choice. And they've chosen to ding their customers hard. They don't have to charge a $25 service fee. That also is entirely their choice. They don't have to charge you separately for AIFs, or customs fees, or "fuel". Everything that they require their customer to pay is their choice -- nobody else's. If I book a flight using RBC Avion points, I pay $0 out of pocket. That's RBC's choice. If I book a flight on SPG Flights, I pay $0 out of pocket. That's Starwood's choice. If I book a flight on Air Miles, I need a to get a second mortgage. That's Air Mile's choice.
As for more than a $25 charge being legally constituted as "fraud", I'm not sure what legal basis that has. They could choose to charge a $1000 service fee on every booking if they wanted. But that would probably take them well past the "tipping point" (which arguably they're teetering on right now).
If something's charged on top of the retail fare, it's a surcharge. If it's IN the retail fare, then it's, well, it IS the retail fare.
Ultimately if you agree that it's a numbers shell game, then I think you must agree with my basic premise (and therefore can't call me "Wrong"!
)First of all, a "flow through" would be, by definition, a defined cost paid to an outside party, where the exact sum goes to that party (not Air Miles, not Westjet) for a specified item. That could legitimately be an AIF, or a customs inspection user fee. "Fuel surcharge", though, is airline revenue -- pure and simple. It's not paid directly to Shell or Esso. It's not a flow through.
Ultimately, though, I think you misunderstood me. Air Miles does not "have" to pass on any tax or surcharge to their end customer. Flow-through or not. That's entirely their choice. And they've chosen to ding their customers hard. They don't have to charge a $25 service fee. That also is entirely their choice. They don't have to charge you separately for AIFs, or customs fees, or "fuel". Everything that they require their customer to pay is their choice -- nobody else's. If I book a flight using RBC Avion points, I pay $0 out of pocket. That's RBC's choice. If I book a flight on SPG Flights, I pay $0 out of pocket. That's Starwood's choice. If I book a flight on Air Miles, I need a to get a second mortgage. That's Air Mile's choice.
As for more than a $25 charge being legally constituted as "fraud", I'm not sure what legal basis that has. They could choose to charge a $1000 service fee on every booking if they wanted. But that would probably take them well past the "tipping point" (which arguably they're teetering on right now).
I'm just trying to explain how it works not whether it is ethical. It is a shell game, and it is a fuel surcharge, and it is a "fee" that gets passed-through on award tickets on both Aeroplan and AirMiles. Don't shoot the messenger; direct your consumer complaint to the Airlines and whatever responsible gov't agency.
It is a flow through from the perspective of Air Miles, it is a fee not covered by what they pay in the "award" amount - but that, of course, is how they've contractually arranged it with Air Canada and Westjet.
Yes, you are right - what AirMiles charges for an award, including any fees/taxes COULD be included in the award miles amount if they contractually arranged it with the airlines. However, we all know that businesses are in business to make a profit and any cost must be made up by a positive increase in revenue to retain the same amount of profitability. So, end result is that many more miles would be required for an award if there was zero net cost to the customer. So, while it is a shell game, there is little net financial benefit to ending it for the customer.
Oh, and I never said anything magic about $25 and fraud; $25 just happens to be the basic amount of the booking fee AirMiles charges - anything beyond that IS a flow-through (regardless if you like my definition or not).
Oct 3, 2010, 3:42 am
#33
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Location: Europe's World City
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Posts: 1,113
You poor people in canada. But I am afraid that Uk is going the same direction. It seems Canadian airlines are less regulated and can charge whatever they can get away with.
Thank goodness at this moment in UK Airmiles programme. We can only redeem BA flights with Airmiles. But all the charges are included in the Airmiles price. So we only need to pay by Airmiles and nothing else. I hope the way would be kept.
Thank goodness at this moment in UK Airmiles programme. We can only redeem BA flights with Airmiles. But all the charges are included in the Airmiles price. So we only need to pay by Airmiles and nothing else. I hope the way would be kept.
Oct 6, 2010, 10:57 pm
#34
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: May 2002
Location: YEG
Programs: HH Silver
Posts: 56,449
Nonsense. Canadians airlines are regulated heavily however it's not the airlines and their charges that are the subject of this thread, it's the redemptions made through reward programs.
Oct 7, 2010, 7:57 am
#35
Join Date: Nov 2005
Programs: AP, AM
Posts: 128
But it can work
I don't redeem Airmiles very often but it has always worked for me. This example:
Booked for YOW-ORD mid-November (late planning this one)
Airmiles:
CHARGE DETAILS
AIR MILES WITHDRAWN.................................862
US APHIS USER FEE..................................5.21
CANADA AIR SECURITY CHARGE........................12.10
PASSENGER FACILITY CHARGES.........................4.68
HST ON TICKET TAXES AND FEE........................1.95
GST ON TICKET TAXES AND FEE........................1.36
US TRANSPORTATION TAX.............................33.52
AIRPORT IMPROVEMENT FEE-AIF.......................15.00
NAV CANADA FUEL AND SECURITY SURCHARGE...........15.00
US SECURITY FEE....................................2.60
US FEDERAL INSPECTION FEE..........................7.29
AIR MILES ADMINISTRATION FEE......................30.00
GST ON AIR MILES ADMINISTRATION FEE................1.50
TAXES/SERVICE CHARGES AND ADMIN FEE SUBTOTAL.....130.21
INSURANCE SUBTOTAL.................................0.00
TOTAL CASH SALE..................................130.21
Phone was answered in less than 2 minutes (agent said it was because I punched in my AM number, and am at the gold level). AM had lots of availability on AA non-stop. Best price otherwise was Porter with 20% off via YTZ. Subtracting the $130 off Porter's best price leaves $352 or 41 cents per airmile, with no connection.
For 15,000, Aeroplan only offered through YYZ (25,000 for the n/s on UA metal) and their fees were $179. Aeroplan fees were only $82. on the UA n/s but we've all heard that story before.
Booked for YOW-ORD mid-November (late planning this one)
Airmiles:
CHARGE DETAILS
AIR MILES WITHDRAWN.................................862
US APHIS USER FEE..................................5.21
CANADA AIR SECURITY CHARGE........................12.10
PASSENGER FACILITY CHARGES.........................4.68
HST ON TICKET TAXES AND FEE........................1.95
GST ON TICKET TAXES AND FEE........................1.36
US TRANSPORTATION TAX.............................33.52
AIRPORT IMPROVEMENT FEE-AIF.......................15.00
NAV CANADA FUEL AND SECURITY SURCHARGE...........15.00
US SECURITY FEE....................................2.60
US FEDERAL INSPECTION FEE..........................7.29
AIR MILES ADMINISTRATION FEE......................30.00
GST ON AIR MILES ADMINISTRATION FEE................1.50
TAXES/SERVICE CHARGES AND ADMIN FEE SUBTOTAL.....130.21
INSURANCE SUBTOTAL.................................0.00
TOTAL CASH SALE..................................130.21
Phone was answered in less than 2 minutes (agent said it was because I punched in my AM number, and am at the gold level). AM had lots of availability on AA non-stop. Best price otherwise was Porter with 20% off via YTZ. Subtracting the $130 off Porter's best price leaves $352 or 41 cents per airmile, with no connection.
For 15,000, Aeroplan only offered through YYZ (25,000 for the n/s on UA metal) and their fees were $179. Aeroplan fees were only $82. on the UA n/s but we've all heard that story before.
Oct 16, 2010, 3:02 pm
#37
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: YYZ/YHM/BUF
Programs: AA Plat, HH Gold, MR Plat
Posts: 4,212
AirMiles is a joke that's not even worth the effort in trying to maximize. I use it if I happen to be at a merchant that participates in the program (like LCBO, Shell, Boston Pizza), but I won't go out of my way to earn them. Metro is generally a more expensive supermarket and I'll only buy something there if they have a good sale on the item or a VERY good bonus offer. Rexall Pharma Plus is a crappy store compared to Shoppers Drug Mart. I only redeem the miles for GCs. I figure it's better than nothing.
You're better off shopping at merchants that have the best deal (Wal-Mart, Food Basics/FreshCo/No Frills, Costco, etc) and paying with a good rewards credit card.
You're better off shopping at merchants that have the best deal (Wal-Mart, Food Basics/FreshCo/No Frills, Costco, etc) and paying with a good rewards credit card.
Oct 18, 2010, 1:12 pm
#38
Join Date: Nov 2005
Programs: AP, AM
Posts: 128
But it can work # 2
On-line booking certainly making redemptions easier:
YOW-IND May 20 - 23
862 airmiles plus $117.93 in fees.
Best price on Kayak - $646 (and no significant discounts for earlier dates). Subtract the $118 in fees works out to 61 cents/mile. Not a joke to me!
YOW-IND May 20 - 23
862 airmiles plus $117.93 in fees.
Best price on Kayak - $646 (and no significant discounts for earlier dates). Subtract the $118 in fees works out to 61 cents/mile. Not a joke to me!