AMflier

Apologies as I haven't mastered multiquotes.

I have planned our extended family ski vacations for the past 20 years. The groups abilities range from double black hikers to Grandpa Green Circles. We've put our children, nieces and nephews through many a ski school. We've skied several of the areas mentioned. My 2 cents:

djp98374 and tuxtom are correct in that there isn't really a standard for what is a black diamond. Unlike ranking white water rapids where there is a standard ski slopes are ranked vs other slopes at that specific area. I've seen a mole hill with a black diamond rating because it was the hardest slope at that area. Alta doesn't go above a single black diamond, Jackson Hole has triple black diamonds. That said, I think that you will find the blues at the other Vail owned resorts, Breck, Keystone, Park City to be similar to the ones at Whistler. I can't speak for Banff.

The suggestion to ask the guides / hosts is a very good one. I have found that they tend to steer you to a slope that is actually easier than what is asked for. I also recommend taking a mountain tour on your first day if they are offered. They normally have intermediate tours. Finally moguls come and go. Look at the grooming report before setting out for the day and talk to the ski patrol.

Altitude: No alcohol, Tylenol, and hydrate hydrate hydrate. You will need to acclimate, so take it easy. Whistler's base is unusually low for a ski resort, 2200'. Look at the base elevation of where you will be staying. Banff, the city is below 5000' Park City proper is at 7000, they go up from there. Breck is over 9000'. I had issues when I went there from sea level without the stop. The rest of my family did not. YMMV. I live at sea level and have issues sleeping if I ascend more than 9000' in a day. When we go to areas over 9000', we fly in then spend the night at an intermediate altitude. We go up to the ski area the following morning. It still feels like I'm breathing through a straw for a day or two, but it helps me sleep.

Crowds: I disagree with pseudowede. Presidents week is crowded, especially the first weekend. A lot of the east coast has off from school that whole week. They tend to fly to the easier access resorts in Colorado and Utah. The airport at SLC was a zoo at midnight on the Friday before presidents week last year. The slopes and lifts at Alta / Snowbird were crowded and the bus system was overwhelmed. Same at DEN a few years ago.

We generally try to go to lesser known areas that week or go to areas that don't draw skiers from the east coast. It tends to be less crowded and is cheaper. Canada, Banff not Whistler is a good choice for that. We've had great luck at Copper, Schweitzer, Whitefish, Taos, and Red Mountain. (The last two are hard hills)

Lessons: I really believe in them for the adults as well as the kids. I just don't think that the adults should take lessons with the kids. We ski differently. Our bodies can't take as much punishment as the young can. The lack of decent instructors, especially during peak times has turned me off to the ski schools at the large resorts. It's especially galling considering what is charged. However, if you can get a recommendation from someone you trust for a private instructor, or have the ability to request a recommended group instructor, do it.

If you do want to up your game, there are two ski schools that I recommend for adults and kids. Taos in New Mexico and Mad River Glen in Vermont. Both are hard cult-ish ski areas, not resorts with ski instructors who have been teaching for a decade or two. Both mountains look quite hard but my family now can ski most of them because of those schools. Taos specializes in ski better weeks. Our instructors have been nothing short of amazing. They also had my 10 y.o. hiking the ridge to double blacks her second year there. We'll be returning there President's week 2020.

Finally some alternatives: Look at Deer Valley instead of Park City. It's a really good intermediate hill and they are known for their grooming. Look at Copper in Colorado. It has lots of intermediate terrain. Also in Colorado, Steamboat Springs. Again, lots of intermediate trails.

Enough rambling. Enjoy wherever you decide to go.

AMflier

Double Post

evergrn

OP here.
Ended up going to Park City for logistical/cost reasons.
So now I can comparison between Park City and our usual Whistler.

I actually think blues at Park City are easier on average than those at Whistler, but PC's blues are also wide-ranging.
Whistler has absolutely no easy blue runs, whereas PC has quite a few blue runs that are fairly easy from top to bottom and could pass for a green at Whistler. For example, Snow Dancer. In fact, I think every single dotted blue runs at PC is easier than just about any blue run at Whistler.
PC had some tough blues, too. For example, Bliss. That one may be about as steep as Whistler's Hugo Heaven, but Hugo Heaven is much longer and Whistler still rates it as blue.
I tried a couple of blacks at PC (Phantasm, etc) that looked fairly easy from the chairlift. I thought they were pretty straightforward. I'm not sure if Whistler has any black run that I'd feel comfortable doing.

evergrn

Wrapped up a ski season which included couple trips to Park City, also to Whistler.

PARK CITY

Very easy:
Snowonder
Cascade
Snow Dancer
Red Pine Road
Painted Horse

Easy:
Blaise's Way
Copperhead
Chicane
Another World
Alpenglow

Moderate:
Parley's Park
Keystone
Echo
Upper Crowning Glory

Bit Hard:
Apex Ridge
Upper Apex Ridge

Very Hard:
Hawkeye


WHISTLER
Very easy:
(none)

Easy:
Jersey Cream

Moderate:
Honeycomb
Wishbone
Cloud Nine
Cruiser
Harmony Ridge

Bit Hard:
Sluiceway
Hugh's Heaven
Saddle
Old Man

Very Hard:
Espresso

evergrn

Ski season is just a few months away.
Last year I'd contemplated Keystone/Breckenridge quite seriously but ended up opting for Park City for cost reasons (and got to know it quite well).

I am again considering Keystone / Breckenridge. Looking at skiing Xmas Eve and Xmas Day. Just went back over everything that pseudoswede had written.
I'd be staying at either Hyatt Place Keystone or Doubletree Breckenridge. Has to be one of those.
If Hyatt Place were within 5-min walk to the lifts, we'd do Keystone for sure. But I don't want to walk 15min each way with kids in tow and I can't get the confirmation that the shuttle service will run as normal this winter.

Some questions:
-- How much more crowded is Breckenridge over Xmas compared to Keystone, in a normal year? I know that Vail is limiting tickets this year, but we don't know exactly what that means yet.
-- Even on a crowded Breckenridge day, will there be parts of the mountain that have consistently minimal lift lines?
-- It was mentioned upthread that Breckenridge can get windy. Do they shut down lifts often as result, or the wind's not bad enough to close lifts?
-- @pseudoswede (or anyone): You mentioned that Diamond Back is a pretty manageable black run that's one of two groomed black runs on the mountain. Which is the other? What are some of the easier black runs? I think I can handle steep within reason, as long as it's not mogul or icy. I've been forced into moguls at Park City (Jayhawk) and Whistler (Espresso)... I survived, but those were not fun.
-- @pseudoswede (or anyone): You talked about Elk Run in Keystone's Outback Express area, but any opinion on the others (Porcupine, Bighorn, Wildcat)?

@quirrow :
Maybe we are improving a bit, not sure, but we did Whistler again last spring and felt like Hugo's Heaven was really no big deal this time around. Wife and kids (who're still just learning) enjoyed Hugo's and we did it over and over. My older daughter was a bit scared by Saddle, but the rest of us handled it just fine. The only one blue I struggled with was that Espresso, because it's a fairly long run with pretty big moguls. In summary, our family can handle pretty much any blue runs at Whistler as long as it's not mogul. Do you then think we can safely assume that we should be fine on just about any non-mogul blue runs on any UT/CO resort?

AMflier

Before you book, beware the Covid Operations policies of the resorts that you are looking at. Many have instituted a reservation system that gives preference to season pass holders at the expense of day / multi-day ticket customers. Many areas have eliminated group lessons and are also only offering private lessons. EPIC seems to have a blanket policy for all of their areas, although I anticipate variations for their northeastern properties. Alterra's policy varies slightly from area to area but they all appear to be instituting a reservation system.

This coming's skiing plans are still on hold as we don't know what will be with travel restrictions or resort operation guidelines.

My extended family has also opted to avoid areas that are heavily dependent on trams and gondolas to get up the mountain. We debated staying in NY and buying a "Big 3" pass this year, but all of the ORDA areas (Whiteface, Gore, and Belleayre) have gondolas for main lifts.

evergrn

I would imagine that almost all resorts will not put strangers together in a gondola.
Still it's disconcerting to get into a gondola right after another group has gotten off.
What resorts should do is to keep gondola windows open when not raining/snowing, and use some type of device to suck air out of the cabin in the 20seconds or whatever they have from the time pax unload till new ones climb onboard. I'm hoping Vail Resorts are planning something along those lines.

pseudoswede

As a local, I usually avoid XMas/New Year's in the mountains except if in-laws are visiting. The weather is so unpredictable, and the crowds tend to be much larger. In the past, both mountains are full of people; who knows what things will be like this season. Breckenridge has always been more crowded since it is the better-known mountain with a much better aprés-ski scene.

- I've never known of Breckenridge closing their lifts due to windy conditions. Chairlifts aren't as affected by strong winds like gondolas.
- Besides Diamondback, the other groomed black run is Go Devil; the problem is that it's on the far side of Dercum Mountain, and it requires you to go through the terrain park. Both of these slopes are steep in areas, and can be icy if there hasn't been new snow recently.
- Starfire on North Peak initially was a black diamond, then re-classified as a blue, and it's now back to a black diamond as of last year; again, it's usually groomed and simply steep, especially at the end, which is probably why they turned it back into a black diamond
- As for the Outback, I believe Porcupine and Bighorn are groomed, but it does involve going through glades and some moguls

My family and I have a season pass to Keystone and Breckenridge (only after April). It will be interesting to see how much we use it, especially considering high school gymnastics got moved to late spring. I also just noticed that if I don't use my pass nor reserve passholder weekend dates by December 7, I can request a full refund of my season passes. Something to think about.

evergrn

Appreciate all the info! Very helpful, esp the info about those specific runs at Keystone.
That's disconcerting to hear about the Xmas crowds at Keystone and Breckenridge. But we're locked in now for this trip. Think we're doing Keystone.
This winter will be different for sure, and it sounds like not even Vail Resorts will know what it'll be like until they open.
It's been incredibly difficult to communicate with Vail Resorts / Epic Pass folks.
The couple times I was able to get through, they did not know the answers to any of my questions.

For example, kids ski free at Keystone if you stay at a Keystone lodging. So how does it work with Epic Pass holder priority booking that starts in Nov? Even if kids ski free, do I still have to burn 2 of their 7-day Pass days in order to reserve them spots at Keystone? Asked this question to Keystone / Vail Resorts, and they don't know.