phillyd2

it's about the product as a whole - Their main job is to take you from Point A to Point B, safely and as close to on time as possible. You may not have heard but Pan Am is gone. We no longer dress in suits just to fly. It is a new day. Big Daddy is no longer protecting the industry. Sink or Swim. Get it now? Miles, Upgrades, Preferred Boarding, etc. are all PERKS. (may want to look that word up) not entitlements. I too think that the product can be much better but not your way. My model would be more along the lines of Jet blue.

Fuel, Do you know???? No one knows..- then shut up about something you know nothing about. Just a suggestion of course.

FFOCUS & Lipstick & Humor - After reading your reply I agree, you are the funny one of us two. But in all seriousness, I too agree that FFOCUS is funny. I would say a joke but no need to mince words.

Management which was totally unprepared - maybe but the main fault in this case still goes to the workers.

Kiosks 30-60% - Hell of a spread, but based on your scientific research I dare not argue.

Filthy planes, FA, it is not working - I guess we just have to conclude that the Jetblue FA are smarter & harder workers as they seem to make it work. I don't mind hearing that it is not possible but when I see it actually working elsewhere I must admit that your argument loses some of its appeal.

Outsourcing - Yep, that giant sucking sound is all the overseas jobs coming home. he he he. That's a good one.

Pulling heads out of the sand now - relax we are just talking here? Maybe if you would of asked more nicely about the club's future they would have answered. Just a thought.

There is no transformation plan to read-they haven't finished it yet - hmm, must of dreamed reading it on their web site. Wonder if the BR judge was surprised to read this report, that now does not exist

You must work at Crystal City. - sorry, no. I mean sorry to you not sorry that I do not work there.

May I show you the door??? - No Thanks, but you can hold my hat.

99% of people on this and other boards they make perfect sense. - Based on your previous use of New Math I hope you do not mind if I double check your figures.

Now that I have responded you are free to take your wind up tactics elsewhere. - Again, So sorry but I have as much right as you to state my comments. As much as I disagree with you I do not want you to leave or even stop posting. Stay, Post, Argue....its all good. Here is a secret, that's why there are open Forums.

And by the way, don't be so intolerant of others. Bad show old boy, really.

sbtinme

Philly --- wow. you're coming on very strong here....... One factor to consider is that Art has long been a kind and gentle soul both here and on usaviation.com. I don't say that lightly. His comments are well thought through and helpful. Over the years, he's offered insights and positive comments time and again.

I read this most recent posting of his essentially the same way. I do believe that his letter was an attempt to get the attention of senior mgmt in CCY to outline some significant deficits in their business model these days.

Yep, I agree that while the Pig/Lipstick thing was funny here on FT, I am inclined to agree with the previous poster who commented that receiving box after box of lipstick tubes in the corporate offices in NoVa would only make folks in the mailroom wonder what the H....?!?!? I do wish that part of his letter had not been included since I think it detracts substantially from the wholeness of his letter.

In short, I stand with Art since I share most of his concerns. Art did not gripe or ***** about them, he addressed them. Big difference.

He's right on about the screwy kiosks, of course. Don't we ALL know that?!?! None of us are in a position to quantify the scope of the issue, but I can tell you it's affected me every time I've flown US since 1 Jan 05. If there are 4 kiosks in an ATO, my observation has been that at least one is down everyplace and up to all four are down sometimes. Best guess at batting average is darn close to 50%. Why bicker about percentages here with Art when this is an operational issue that is exceedingly clear to us? Combine that failure rate with the scaled back front line staff (a vast number of whom are brand new) and you've got yourself a tangled mess out there.

Are there any of us out there in FTland who will deny the general thrust of Art's letter? Certainly not I.

Like Art, I do hope that US pulls out of the funk they're in. Amazingly, I still have good friends who work for US who were old Piedmonsters back in the day. They are scared to death and holding on by threads. What Art conveyed to CCY was that there are so many layers of cost cutting and attrition out there that for loyal pax things have gone from good to fair to poor to ------- very nearly unacceptable on a regular basis.

Following that model, the organization is hopelessly doomed.

Art234

Philly,

My letter really made no mention of the lipstick campaign, it just referred to a thread on US Aviation which explained the experiences and frustrations of other flyers as well as myself. The sending of the lipstick may be a bit offbeat but it will open some eyes.

I am in no way intolerant--and I welcome discourse and discussion--as passionate as it may be. I wasn't bashing you or insulting you just responding to you...although we disagree I do welcome your posts as you do mine....

My group and I have long been loyal supporters of a surviving and growing US Airways. We support the airline as an entity--and we comment on all aspects of the operation--what works right as well as what doesn't. It is not just about "perks" as you call it--it's about what the airline wants to be and to whom...If they want to become an LCC that's fine, and if they decide they want to cater to the leisure traveler ala Jet Blue or Southwest that's fine too..they should just stop waffling and tell us already....we will make our travel decisions accordingly.

The bottom line is that US Airways is in serious trouble, and that measures which could have helped the situation have not even been looked at...and no one is accepting responsibility for the major mistakes and operational problems which continue to plague the system and even get worse. It doesn't matter whose fault it was, ultimately someone is RESPONSIBLE for it. But that's a debate for another forum...

I have friends both on the front line and within management, and I will say, lipstick aside, you are the only person who has disagreed with the gist of my note...so I stand by my 99%....

My best to you...

jetsetter

phillyd2,
Personally I do think the perks, or whatever we might want to call them, are nearly as important as just getting there. I don't want the airline to turn in
to a flying bus. I believe in the expression "half the fun is getting there," . Also, even with business travel, a lot of it is discretionary. E.g. conferences, things that could be done online or by some kind of teleconference, etc. etc. To that end, because the experience and ameneties are often better, I have flown UA more in the last 12 months than ever before. I have been particularly impacted by the gutting of the shuttle mystique, which anyone that regularly takes the shuttle knoews about. On a recent transcon flight I also specifically went out of the way to fly UA's P.S. service since the ameneties and overall experience were closer to something out of the early 1990's or before e.g. quality food service, ife, first class lounges with food, etc.

I do appreciate the discussion though so keep it up. Whether or not the intent, it can be helpful for someone to play devils advocate with any idea submitted, and this could even help the person strengthen their idea and build further arguments to support the customer centric idea.

longing4piedmont

If you spent more time reading and comprehending rather than trolling you would see that I am the OP of the two lipstick threads. In neither of them did I mention the clubs as an issue.

If you had a clue about what was going on you would understand that most of the employees lay the blame at Crellins feet for the operational melt down of the airline. This is also not about perks. But then it is easier to throw barbs than to educate yourself about what is happening.

In the future, do not take my words or comments out of context or twist them to support what ever agenda you have this week.

PineyBob

Just for the record phillyd2 I was in the original meeting and elements of our presentation are in the Plan of Transformation.

I am not nearly arrogant enough to think that it was more than great minds thinking alike.

You know it's much easier to sit behind a computer screen and deride someone elses efforts than it is to get up off your assets and attempt to change things.

I await your snide response. Now where pray tell is a moderator when you need one.

GadgetFreak

Well Philly, that is all very good and along the company line. But the fact of the matter is that if you fly other carriers, AA and UA to name two, you get a better experience than on US. AA manages to get crews on planes, flights out on time and luggage delivered on time more frequently than US in my experience. AA planes are cleaner and their in flight service is better. AA is often cheaper as well and certainly not a lot more expensive.

The fact is that it is a competitive, customer service business. Not a freight company. Southwest knows this. They may not have upgrades but they have clean planes and friendly, on time service. They also do a pretty good job with things like bags and check in. Jet Blue also does these better than US I think. So your point is? US will have dirty planes and lost baggage because they are competing with Jet Blue? That simply doesnt even remotely make sense.

Oh, and by the way, my experience in flying US, UA and AA is quite considerable. Im not getting my information about flying those carriers from CNN, management press releases, or head in the ... consultant reports about the airline industry.

martin33

actually that's one we do know with relative certainty. January fuel expense was $114m, the same as February. Instead suppose fuel had been net 25% cheaper, in other words at January 2004 levels. That's about $29 million in each month. Thus, under the year-ago fuel price scenario, US's operating losses in January and February would have been $105 million and $56 million, respectively. In other words, Jan/Feb operations were a shambles even before higher fuel prices, particularly non-labor costs.

UA1P

The points in the letter are valid from a customer's point of view. And since US should care about the customer, it's valid from management's point of view, as well.

Unfortunately, it's a rather rambling and casually structured letter. It makes too many points in a confusing sort of way - e.g. not stating what percentage of kiosks are typically not working - and does not come across as a letter written by a professional. I'm not saying you are not a professional, but the letter is certainly not.

As for PineyBob's comment about writing a "VITO" letter, I've read that book and it's mostly rubbish. It makes some good points, but Bruce Ashby probably won't remember the letter even if you somehow get through to him between 9-10AM on Friday. If it makes you feel better that you tried to impress us by using 'technical' sales jargon, good for you.

Sorry to rag on you two, because you're obviously trying to improve things for US customers, but this 'campaign' to improve US is as third-rate as the company's product.

dayone

Count me among your so-called 1%. There may be "serious arguments" somewhere but they are poorly formed and derisively presented. If you�re �serious� about contributing ideas to improve the airline, present them constructively and professionally. Then you would have a much greater chance of your �arguments� being taken seriously.

Also, shouldn�t the burden of change be spread among all parties? How would you "rationalize" DM? What perks are you will to forgo? Like so many "experts," you believe your behavior and expectations should not be subject to any process improvement.

Finally, I'll share a rule that has served me very well. Anytime I read or hear anything that mentions "think outside the box,� I ignore it. It almost always is a product of �inside the box� thinking.

GadgetFreak

There is an old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". It is in general pretty good advice in my experience. It doesn't remotely apply to US Air of course, but it is a nice old saying nonetheless.

PineyBob

I found this comment to be quite interesting. Actually I tend to agree from the perspective that we get bogged down in jargon. "Out of the box" thinking is one such phrase that has been reduced to jargon IMO.

I had the good fortune of going through a Malcolm Baldridge National Quality award application as a front line employee during my twelve years at Xerox. Now Xerox Corp today is a great many things both positive and negative but in the mid 1980's it was a company headed for the scrap heap. Every aspect of their business needed to be evaluated and massive costs needed to be driven out of their business. When this process started our Unit Manufacturing Cost (UMC) was $300.00 higher than the MSRP of our competitor. When the process started we were told "Nothing is off the table" and we went through EVERY aspect of the business. Xerox won in the award in '87 and to date is the only company that has regained market share in an industry targeted by the Japanese.

Those of us who have put in a fair amount of time to try to help things along at US are in a word, frustrated. some are angry, some even feel betrayed by a carrier they have spent so much time flying on. You form relationships, they know us, we know them. It hurts to see great people struggle with change and it angers us (me).

Have some of us (me) come on to strong? YES! I'm guilty! But never for the sake of being a mean & vindictive kind of fellow.

I have always felt and frankly still do feel that a properly managed, fairly priced US Airways with its Eact Coast dominance should be one of the worlds best airlines by any standard of measure you choose. Now with the company on the brink yet again I am frustrated and angry beyond belief. I'm sorry you don't like the tone and tenor of some of the posts but for me this is five years of frustration coming to a boil. We just want US to as my mom used to say "Straighten up and fly right"

PineyBob

[QUOTE=UA1P].

As for PineyBob's comment about writing a "VITO" letter, I've read that book and it's mostly rubbish. It makes some good points, but Bruce Ashby probably won't remember the letter even if you somehow get through to him between 9-10AM on Friday. If it makes you feel better that you tried to impress us by using 'technical' sales jargon, good for you.[QUOTE]

Well I do earn my living as a Sales Trainer UA1P. I also know a great many on here are in Sales and like you may be familiar with Tony Parrenellas rather interesting and amusing take on the concept of top down selling.

FYI- It didn't work, YET! His administrator is a very effective screener of calls. A tiny bit on the rude and arrogant side, definately not as pleasant as B. Ben Baldanza's or some of the other administrators I have spoken with.

I'm truly sorry if you thought I was trying to "Impress". I love selling and I love Sales Training. Another FYI- I sold my largest order in my selling career off a VITO letter. Hokey? Jargon filled? Yeah VITO is all of that it also filled up my wallet for 3 years as the deal paid out over 36 months and brother they were powerful commission checks. Powerful!

Of course my ex wife has the money now but that's a different forum.

phillyd2

To the OP and pals, I sincerely hope that you do not attack the other "1%" as you did me and understand, as said many times before, that we too are loyal US customers who want nothing more than for our airline to succeed and prosper for many years to come. Because you put up a web site, get your names in the paper and have PR meeting does NOT mean that you are more loyal or concerned than the rest of us. Sorry to say but some of you come off as self righteous elitists and seem to think that you are somehow above the rest of us. Say no if you want but I am just saying how you come across to some.

We all enjoy a healthy debate and most understand that some of us (ok, me) take poetic license to make our points. This is to be taken as given. In other words, when called a Twinkie it does not mean that you are really a sugar filled snack food.

It is just that your approach seems to much like self promoting, feel good dribble. That's all. I also am disappointed in, frustrated by US (both management & workers) but many here are acting like US is a girlfriend who had cheated on you instead of a business that will either fail or succeed based on market conditions. Near my house there is a 7-11 that gives bad service with high prices. After a few visits I changed to a WaWa which while not as close offered much better service. What I did not do was send them Lipstick, I did not toilet paper their parking lot, I did not start a web site expressing my desire to "implement positive change" at 7-11. I did want all normal customers would have (should have) done - I took my business elsewhere.

If enough people do the same, the store will close. Sure we can get into all type of discussions about the poor mother of 3 who lost her job but folks, free market capitalism is not a feel good enterprise. This is not France (no disrespect meant just showing the difference in economic theory). I do not want US to fail especially since I live in Philly and it would effect me much more than others. But if they do not change their way of business they have no reason or right to be around. I too do not like Southwest (only flew her one time out of Baltimore) but all at US must keep asking something of this and other LCC, are they doing some things better than us. I have also flew JetBlue once and was shocked (in a good way) that such service and quality product was even still available in the domestic airline industry.

PineyBob

You know Philly2D there are many ways to skin a cat. As you accurately point out we could just leave. Many have and many more will.

Some of us prefer a different approach. It's Ford's & Chevy's. We are free to leave, free to put up a web site, free to send lipstick or whatever we choose to do to make our opinions known. This is the way a free and open society is.

I respect the fact that you don't like our methods even though it appears you feel similarly to many of us who created FFOCUS.

All I would ask is that you extend that same courtesy to us and we will do likewise. This board has plenty of bandwidth for opposing points of view. the rancor and rhetoric doesn't have to be.