Airlines Set to Crack Down on 'Creative' Ticketing
Jun 28, 2002, 12:34 pm
#16
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ticket rules, for tickets sold in Switzerland (I buy them at UA's official agent in Switzerland: LH), would have to be printed (and shown to me, attached to the ticket) in one of our official languages in Switzerland (german, french, italian or romantsch).
I am looking (really) forward to my first legal dispute with UA ...
I am looking (really) forward to my first legal dispute with UA ...
Jun 28, 2002, 1:31 pm
#17
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RUDI/VENK:
As we said:
If United.com sell me a ticket and my credit card is charged then that's it. I am no travel agent. I don't get a commission. Those "rules" better be incorporated into the United.com software.
Otherwise let them explain to the jury the fare rules...
The airlines really get desparate.
As we said:
If United.com sell me a ticket and my credit card is charged then that's it. I am no travel agent. I don't get a commission. Those "rules" better be incorporated into the United.com software.
Otherwise let them explain to the jury the fare rules...
The airlines really get desparate.
Jun 28, 2002, 2:22 pm
#18
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Switzerland has some very consumer friendly laws on the books so it would be interesting to see what would happen in Rudi's case. In the U.S., forgetabouit.
All airline tickets are sold pursuant to the airline's conditions of carriage (their tariffs), which are on file with the Department of Transportation and must be provided by the airlines at tickting points when asked for by a customer.
Even though you never saw the tariff and likely have no idea what it says, you are bound by its rules when dealing with airline tickets. And the tariffs prohibit back-to-back ticketing. United's is available on its web site.
When Delta pushed the issue against one of their very frequent fliers, they prevailed. You can moan about it, it may not make the best business sense, but they can legally do it, at least in the U.S.
All airline tickets are sold pursuant to the airline's conditions of carriage (their tariffs), which are on file with the Department of Transportation and must be provided by the airlines at tickting points when asked for by a customer.
Even though you never saw the tariff and likely have no idea what it says, you are bound by its rules when dealing with airline tickets. And the tariffs prohibit back-to-back ticketing. United's is available on its web site.
When Delta pushed the issue against one of their very frequent fliers, they prevailed. You can moan about it, it may not make the best business sense, but they can legally do it, at least in the U.S.
Jun 28, 2002, 3:15 pm
#19
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What's wrong w/nested tickets? As long as all legs are flown, aren't they 100% a-ok?
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by UAPremierExec:
And yes, UNITED does have the right to NOT allow nested or back-to-backs, despite what some of you guys may think otherwise.</font>
And yes, UNITED does have the right to NOT allow nested or back-to-backs, despite what some of you guys may think otherwise.</font>
Jun 28, 2002, 3:17 pm
#20
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: NYC
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It may be united rules but I doubt it would hold up before a judge. If you buy two tickets and follow to carriage of contract for both of these tickets to the letter (staying a sat.) than how could this be considered illegal?
Jun 28, 2002, 11:28 pm
#21
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Who said "illegal"? We're talking about a breach of contract. United draws up the contract (it's tariff, i.e., conditions of carriage) and you agree to them when you buy the ticket.
You breach the terms of the contract and United can obtain the damages (loss of money) for your breach. Yes, a judge will uphold it.
You breach the terms of the contract and United can obtain the damages (loss of money) for your breach. Yes, a judge will uphold it.
Jun 29, 2002, 5:04 am
#22
Join Date: Dec 2001
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by erik123:
It may be united rules but I doubt it would hold up before a judge. If you buy two tickets and follow to carriage of contract for both of these tickets to the letter (staying a sat.) than how could this be considered illegal?</font>
It may be united rules but I doubt it would hold up before a judge. If you buy two tickets and follow to carriage of contract for both of these tickets to the letter (staying a sat.) than how could this be considered illegal?</font>
Jun 29, 2002, 7:23 am
#23
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Give me an example. I thought this was very vaguely defined.
Jun 29, 2002, 8:38 am
#24
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While it does have some vague terminology, I don't think it's enough to void the clause.
I think you might be thinking about how the courts can strike down laws that are too vaguely defined, but an entirely different standard applies to private contracts.
While the government could never pass a law like this, which essentially, defines a thought crime, United can.
[This message has been edited by robb (edited 06-29-2002).]
I think you might be thinking about how the courts can strike down laws that are too vaguely defined, but an entirely different standard applies to private contracts.
While the government could never pass a law like this, which essentially, defines a thought crime, United can.
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">From www.rulesoftheair.com:
Rule 100C
Use of coupons from two or more tickets issued at round trip fares for the purpose of circumventing applicable tariff rules (such as advance purchase / minimum stay requirement) is not permitted. United agents and authorized travel agents are prohibited from issuing tickets, commonly referred to as "back to back ticketing", under such circumstances when there is obvious intent to abuse and/or misuse restricted round trip fares. Agents found issuing such tickets may be liable for the difference between the fare paid and the fare for transportation used. United Airlines has the right to deny transportation to passengers found utilizing tickets in this manner unless the difference between the fare paid and the fare for the transportation used is collected.
Rule 100 C / 22nd revised page UA-7 / May 9, 1996</font>
Rule 100C
Use of coupons from two or more tickets issued at round trip fares for the purpose of circumventing applicable tariff rules (such as advance purchase / minimum stay requirement) is not permitted. United agents and authorized travel agents are prohibited from issuing tickets, commonly referred to as "back to back ticketing", under such circumstances when there is obvious intent to abuse and/or misuse restricted round trip fares. Agents found issuing such tickets may be liable for the difference between the fare paid and the fare for transportation used. United Airlines has the right to deny transportation to passengers found utilizing tickets in this manner unless the difference between the fare paid and the fare for the transportation used is collected.
Rule 100 C / 22nd revised page UA-7 / May 9, 1996</font>
Jun 29, 2002, 8:45 am
#25
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,748
An obvious example is a Fri-Mon A->B->A flight nested inside a Thu-Tue B->A->B thus avoiding two one-day return tickets (Thu-Fri and Mon-Tue). Of course, this depends very much on the semantics of the "sat night stay required". But the enforcement does not appear to come from enforcing the sat. night stay requirements clause on each ticket but from clauses that simply say certain type of ticketing is not allowed.
But I agree with you that the clauses are a bit vague most of the times. For example, some of the fare rules talk about not combining end-to-end on the same ticket nothing about purchasing multiple tickets. At least anecdotally, they seem to be getting away with it. Although, I am not sure that they can get away with it without significant PR damage if one were to heavily publicize such an enforcement being challenged in the court.
But I agree with you that the clauses are a bit vague most of the times. For example, some of the fare rules talk about not combining end-to-end on the same ticket nothing about purchasing multiple tickets. At least anecdotally, they seem to be getting away with it. Although, I am not sure that they can get away with it without significant PR damage if one were to heavily publicize such an enforcement being challenged in the court.
Jun 29, 2002, 8:52 am
#26
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Pardon my pea-size brain question:
Why does United Airlines (or for that matter anyother airline) put on sale (on united.com), tickets with routing configurations that break the airlines own 'term of carriage'?
Explain that to the jury.
Why does United Airlines (or for that matter anyother airline) put on sale (on united.com), tickets with routing configurations that break the airlines own 'term of carriage'?
Explain that to the jury.
Jun 29, 2002, 11:41 am
#27
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Give us an example (and keep in mind that a provision that contractually applies to one party does not have to be followed by the other).
Jun 29, 2002, 12:01 pm
#28
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see my thread "United to Travel Agents: BOHICA"
Jun 30, 2002, 8:11 am
#29
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Always Flyin:
Was your question directed to me? I am sorry, but I don't understand your last posting.
Now, here is another question to anyone:
Is anybody aware of a case where an individual FT/pax was penalized by UA for a nested or back to back ticket that he/she purchased on United.com?
Please cite the thread....
Don't recite TA's problems with UA. TAs are a different business entity.
Was your question directed to me? I am sorry, but I don't understand your last posting.
Now, here is another question to anyone:
Is anybody aware of a case where an individual FT/pax was penalized by UA for a nested or back to back ticket that he/she purchased on United.com?
Please cite the thread....
Don't recite TA's problems with UA. TAs are a different business entity.
Jun 30, 2002, 8:33 am
#30
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: NYC
Posts: 9,125
I'm hard pressed to see how following the exact conditions of carriage for each ticket bought - including following a saturday night stay for each of the tickets - can be considered 'circumventing fare restrictions', since you are not circumventing any restrictions for the 'one' ticket you are using. Also, I fail to see how they can refuse to sell you a second ticket that is sold on the open market to anyone willing to pay the fare.