Wouldn't this be a better flight system?
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SFO
Programs: UA Platinum, AF, Chase, Hyatt Explorist
Posts: 1,095
Wouldn't this be a better flight system?
I've been thinking about ways to make the airlines profitable again, and I was talking to my dad about this when we were in the LAX RCC a few weeks ago, and we've come up with an idea that we think might work.
As I've expressed in other threads, DEN-LAX operates 11x a day on crammed 737's, A320's, and 757's, and in my experience, most of my flights to or from LAX have been relatively empty and have appeared that UAL didn't make a profit on them. Why doesn't UAL cut down on the frequency of intrahub and high-density routes and fly larger (A330 size) planes in more comfortable configurations? Perhaps 8 abreast 777's or 7 abreast A330's? Or all Economy plus Y cabins? (I'm not necessarily suggesting that UAL should buy A330's, but rather that the 330 is the size I'm thinking of for this idea.) Even if it's marginally more profitable, UAL could probably get away with slightly raising ticket prices for the extra comfort. As for low density routes and hub-to-nowhere routes, UAL could still fly narrowbodies.
What do you think of this? I certainly like the idea of more comfortable cabins, and I wouldn't mind adjusting to UAL's schedule to catch my flight. Do you think UAL could turn a profit on this, as well as perhaps improve their reputation?
As I've expressed in other threads, DEN-LAX operates 11x a day on crammed 737's, A320's, and 757's, and in my experience, most of my flights to or from LAX have been relatively empty and have appeared that UAL didn't make a profit on them. Why doesn't UAL cut down on the frequency of intrahub and high-density routes and fly larger (A330 size) planes in more comfortable configurations? Perhaps 8 abreast 777's or 7 abreast A330's? Or all Economy plus Y cabins? (I'm not necessarily suggesting that UAL should buy A330's, but rather that the 330 is the size I'm thinking of for this idea.) Even if it's marginally more profitable, UAL could probably get away with slightly raising ticket prices for the extra comfort. As for low density routes and hub-to-nowhere routes, UAL could still fly narrowbodies.
What do you think of this? I certainly like the idea of more comfortable cabins, and I wouldn't mind adjusting to UAL's schedule to catch my flight. Do you think UAL could turn a profit on this, as well as perhaps improve their reputation?
#2
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: RIC
Programs: UA 1K MM
Posts: 3,387
Your proposal would require buying new widebodies, as the current widebodies are already almost completely utilized flying international, intrahub, and Hawaii routes. The exact route you speak of (DEN-LAX) has at least 3 widebody flights daily.
AA already tried the comfort concept with MRTC, and we all know what happened with that.
AA already tried the comfort concept with MRTC, and we all know what happened with that.
#3
Join Date: May 2005
Programs: AA EXP, DL Plat, US Chairman, SPG Plat, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Gold, IC RA
Posts: 1,436
I would submit that most business travelers (self included) are willing to pay a premium for increased frequency. If I have the choice between getting home an hour earlier or being in a slightly more comfortable seat for the 2 hour flight back, I will take the extra hour at home every single time. I suspect most folks who are on the road for work often (read: the people who pay the most) think the same way.
#4
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: SNA
Programs: UA Million Mile Nobody, Marriott Platinum Elite, SPG Gold
Posts: 25,228
I would submit that most business travelers (self included) are willing to pay a premium for increased frequency. If I have the choice between getting home an hour earlier or being in a slightly more comfortable seat for the 2 hour flight back, I will take the extra hour at home every single time. I suspect most folks who are on the road for work often (read: the people who pay the most) think the same way.
#5
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pacific Northwest
Programs: UA Gold 1MM, AS 75k, AA Plat, Bonvoyed Gold, Honors Dia, Hyatt Explorer, IHG Plat, ...
Posts: 16,869
I would submit that most business travelers (self included) are willing to pay a premium for increased frequency. If I have the choice between getting home an hour earlier or being in a slightly more comfortable seat for the 2 hour flight back, I will take the extra hour at home every single time. I suspect most folks who are on the road for work often (read: the people who pay the most) think the same way.
#6
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SFO
Programs: UA Platinum, AF, Chase, Hyatt Explorist
Posts: 1,095
I've calculated the approximate number of seats on those 11 flights (250 in first, 1818 in both economies), and using a 2-class SQ 777 as a base, UAL could fly these enhanced planes anywhere between 6 or 7 times a day DEN-LAX instead of 11 on their current mix of 752's, 737's, 777, 763's, and 320's. I'm not sure how much more comfortable the SQ 777 configuration I used is, but the SQ 777's I've flown are more comfortable than any plane UAL has. The general point remains that UAL would need to fly less frequently with a larger, more comfortable plane.
The only question is if the operating cost of 6-7 flights on a 777 is lower than the operating cost of 11 flights on a mix of (mostly smaller) aircraft.
EDIT: The configuration of the SQ 777 I used has a 34" pitch and 17.5" width. The UAL 752, the plane that most often flies DEN-LAX, has a 31" pitch and 17" width.
The only question is if the operating cost of 6-7 flights on a 777 is lower than the operating cost of 11 flights on a mix of (mostly smaller) aircraft.
EDIT: The configuration of the SQ 777 I used has a 34" pitch and 17.5" width. The UAL 752, the plane that most often flies DEN-LAX, has a 31" pitch and 17" width.
Last edited by char777; Jun 27, 2008 at 10:31 pm
#7
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: SJC, SFO, YYC
Programs: AA-EXP, AA-0.41MM, UA-Gold, Ex UA-1K (2006 thru 2015), PMUA-0.95MM, COUA-1.5MM-lite, AF-Silver
Posts: 13,437
As I've expressed in other threads, DEN-LAX operates 11x a day on crammed 737's, A320's, and 757's, and in my experience, most of my flights to or from LAX have been relatively empty and have appeared that UAL didn't make a profit on them. Why doesn't UAL cut down on the frequency of intrahub and high-density routes and fly larger (A330 size) planes in more comfortable configurations? Perhaps 8 abreast 777's or 7 abreast A330's?
UA used to fly 3-class wide bodies on that route. Last time I was on one was in 2003 on the way to SYD. I imagine they stopped being profitable, and UA redeployed them on TATLs and TPACs.
#8
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Boulder, CO
Programs: UA, AA, WN; HH, MR, IHG
Posts: 7,054
The whole reason UA and other airlines (including LCCs) fly narrowbodies, especially smaller narrowbodies like 737s, is that customers demanded more frequency. That's one reason for the proliferation of RJs - high frequency, hence lower capacity per plane.
UA is trying to cut capacity, and part of that involves cutting frequency... but cutting it by combining 3-4 narrowbodies into a single widebody is probably just a bit more than they are trying for (as well as not having enough widebody planes to do it).
UA is trying to cut capacity, and part of that involves cutting frequency... but cutting it by combining 3-4 narrowbodies into a single widebody is probably just a bit more than they are trying for (as well as not having enough widebody planes to do it).
#9
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SFO
Programs: UA Platinum, AF, Chase, Hyatt Explorist
Posts: 1,095
The whole reason UA and other airlines (including LCCs) fly narrowbodies, especially smaller narrowbodies like 737s, is that customers demanded more frequency. That's one reason for the proliferation of RJs - high frequency, hence lower capacity per plane.
UA is trying to cut capacity, and part of that involves cutting frequency... but cutting it by combining 3-4 narrowbodies into a single widebody is probably just a bit more than they are trying for (as well as not having enough widebody planes to do it).
UA is trying to cut capacity, and part of that involves cutting frequency... but cutting it by combining 3-4 narrowbodies into a single widebody is probably just a bit more than they are trying for (as well as not having enough widebody planes to do it).
However, do you think that perhaps passengers will need to sacrifice frequency in this economic climate?
#10
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Northern California
Programs: UA Premier Gold, 1.5 Million Mile Flyer
Posts: 3,548
I would submit that most business travelers (self included) are willing to pay a premium for increased frequency. If I have the choice between getting home an hour earlier or being in a slightly more comfortable seat for the 2 hour flight back, I will take the extra hour at home every single time. I suspect most folks who are on the road for work often (read: the people who pay the most) think the same way.
#11
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Boulder, CO
Programs: UA, AA, WN; HH, MR, IHG
Posts: 7,054
I don't think it's a question of needing to sacrifice frequency more so than needing to just not fly as much, which is what's happening. Some of that frequency is being sacrificed simply by cutting capacity and grounding planes, so this is already happening.
#12
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SFO
Programs: UA Platinum, AF, Chase, Hyatt Explorist
Posts: 1,095
Therefore, couldn't the airlines theoretically fly more comfortable configurations?
#13
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Boulder, CO
Programs: UA, AA, WN; HH, MR, IHG
Posts: 7,054
More comfortable configurations are not as cost-effective. Yes, they could raise prices, but consumers are very price-driven. Again, witness AA's "More Room Throughout Coach" - it died. The only reason E+ survives is because it is an optional cost that people can choose not to pay, but choose to pay because they decide it's worth it. If people were forced to pay it, they would resent it.
Also, it costs money to reconfigure planes... that's even more money that then must be recuperated through higher fares.
#14
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SFO
Programs: UA Platinum, AF, Chase, Hyatt Explorist
Posts: 1,095
If they did, they couldn't fit as many people on the plane. They're trying to maximize the number of revenue seats per flight while reducing the number of flights. Making the configurations "comfortable" reduces the number of seats per flight, meaning that they have to fly more planes unless they want to reduce capacity below what they're trying to achieve now.
More comfortable configurations are not as cost-effective. Yes, they could raise prices, but consumers are very price-driven. Again, witness AA's "More Room Throughout Coach" - it died. The only reason E+ survives is because it is an optional cost that people can choose not to pay, but choose to pay because they decide it's worth it. If people were forced to pay it, they would resent it.
Also, it costs money to reconfigure planes... that's even more money that then must be recuperated through higher fares.
More comfortable configurations are not as cost-effective. Yes, they could raise prices, but consumers are very price-driven. Again, witness AA's "More Room Throughout Coach" - it died. The only reason E+ survives is because it is an optional cost that people can choose not to pay, but choose to pay because they decide it's worth it. If people were forced to pay it, they would resent it.
Also, it costs money to reconfigure planes... that's even more money that then must be recuperated through higher fares.
#15
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Boulder, CO
Programs: UA, AA, WN; HH, MR, IHG
Posts: 7,054
So then have we reached the omnipotent conclusion that travellers are only looking for the cheapest damn fare they can find for cattle class and cattle class only on Orbitz, and also that the airlines will never change their sardine can configurations in any climate since the consumers are willing to pay for cattle class?
In the modern era, air travel is a commodity, and like all commodities, 95% of consumers demand that it be as cheap as possible, damn the amenities. They'll complain bitterly about the lack of amenities, but will generally refuse to pay more for those amenities, or will resent paying for it because they "have no choice" (read: want it enough to pay for it but feel like they were entitled to it in the first place).
(Of course, one of the reasons why FTers complain so bitterly, and rightfully so, is that paying for F no longer really guarantees better quality or service...)