"United Pilot Unity"
Jan 5, 2008, 9:28 am
#17
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 23,999
Actually, the reason they're missing is because the pay is the same for the 777/747. You'll also notice that the 757 and 320 are missing. That's because the 757 pays the same as the 767 and the 320 pays the same as the 737.
Jan 5, 2008, 1:17 pm
#18
Join Date: Feb 2002
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Posts: 8,184
That's a pretty good figure. More for international schedules. You don't make much money on per diem, though. You pretty much spend it all on meals, uniform cleaning, travel expenses and travel supplies. Per diem is supposed to cover all of those type of expenses and it's usually in the ball park and much simpiler than doing expense reports.
Jan 5, 2008, 1:18 pm
#19
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Jan 5, 2008, 1:26 pm
#20
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Were they not near the top of US airlines pre BK? I'm sorry but I have zero empathy with the pilots after the 2000 summer from hell. Seems like that is the path the pilots are traveling again. IIRC that lead to their super contract that was voided by the BK judge.
Jan 5, 2008, 1:35 pm
#21
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BNA
Programs: HH Gold. (Former) UA PP, DL PM, PC Plat
Posts: 8,184
I didn't ask you for any empathy. I'm not even a UAL pilot. I answered xzhu's quesiton.
Jan 5, 2008, 1:48 pm
#22
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 68
And I'd like to add a little bit more to the pilot compensation discussion. What I read in the press is about 1/3 accurate unfortunately. I'm not stating the below to "defend" my compensation, because frankly, I have a very technical job that few people fully understand and I don't care if anyone thinks if I am overpaid or underpaid. But everyone's always interested in how much pilots earn, so here it goes........
The scales that Bangkok Traveler posted are relatively accurate and are probably based on minimum pay guarantee as I look at what I made last year and what figure was on the column for my fleet and seat. You could probably add another 20% to those figures as we are only guaranteed to earn 65 hours of pay per month and many of us work MUCH more than that obviously. Also keep in mind that when the media says something like, "a pilot only works 80 hours a month," that the media is totally wrong. What they should state is, "a pilot is only paid on average 80 hours a month." Obviously, to me anyway, we all have full time jobs in the airline industry and to imply, as the media often does, that we only work 20 hours per week is ridiculous. We have hours upon hours of time on duty that go unpaid and that comes with the profession. But I think the media sees that we only get "paid" for 80 hours a month, for example, and assumes that's all we work, too. There' a saying around work that goes like this: If you see a pilot, he isn't getting paid. It's very true. Again, not complaining, just telling you how it is.
And I know that my friends and family read in the paper about those 200K/year pilots, and think we all bring that in. I wish! In actuality, only the most senior widebody pilots bring in anything over approximately $150,000-ish /year. And the persons that earn that kind of dough are extremely rare and again, unfortunately a very small % of the pilots in the airline industry. But the industry needs to pay those kind of numbers at the upper end to compensate the individual pilot for the "trials and tribulations" he will go through for the CHANCE of making that money someday. I'll explain and I'll use an "average" pilot as an example.
And as I type this, I guess many people could probably care less about any of this, so I'll end this post now so you have no need to read any further if you're bored. If you want to read more, read the next post....
The scales that Bangkok Traveler posted are relatively accurate and are probably based on minimum pay guarantee as I look at what I made last year and what figure was on the column for my fleet and seat. You could probably add another 20% to those figures as we are only guaranteed to earn 65 hours of pay per month and many of us work MUCH more than that obviously. Also keep in mind that when the media says something like, "a pilot only works 80 hours a month," that the media is totally wrong. What they should state is, "a pilot is only paid on average 80 hours a month." Obviously, to me anyway, we all have full time jobs in the airline industry and to imply, as the media often does, that we only work 20 hours per week is ridiculous. We have hours upon hours of time on duty that go unpaid and that comes with the profession. But I think the media sees that we only get "paid" for 80 hours a month, for example, and assumes that's all we work, too. There' a saying around work that goes like this: If you see a pilot, he isn't getting paid. It's very true. Again, not complaining, just telling you how it is.
And I know that my friends and family read in the paper about those 200K/year pilots, and think we all bring that in. I wish! In actuality, only the most senior widebody pilots bring in anything over approximately $150,000-ish /year. And the persons that earn that kind of dough are extremely rare and again, unfortunately a very small % of the pilots in the airline industry. But the industry needs to pay those kind of numbers at the upper end to compensate the individual pilot for the "trials and tribulations" he will go through for the CHANCE of making that money someday. I'll explain and I'll use an "average" pilot as an example.
And as I type this, I guess many people could probably care less about any of this, so I'll end this post now so you have no need to read any further if you're bored. If you want to read more, read the next post....
Last edited by waterfalls123; Jan 6, 2008 at 9:09 am
Jan 5, 2008, 2:34 pm
#23
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 68
So this is the career path the average civilian UA pilot takes, and I'll use some of my personal experience as an example. I'll let the military guys comment on their path as I didn't go that route.
Basically, in order to be competitive as an airline pilot, you have to have a 4 year degree. In addition to that, you have to pay for your flight training in order to obtain the certificates necessary to fly commercially, which normally includes your commercial pilot certificate and your flight instructor ratings. So in addition to 4 years of tuition, the typical civilian wannabe airline pilot is shelling out anywhere from $30,000- $50,000 nowadays to obtain all his ratings. Some more if they go to a "high end" school, some less if they go to a local airport.
So now this newly minted pilot has graduated from college and obtained all his ratings. He has about 200 hours, which back when I was building flight time, was nothing. He also has 10's of thousands of dollars of debt beyond his 4 year degree. Out he goes out looking for a flight instruction job. Salary expectation for a flight instructor working full time with ZERO benefits (no health, 401K, vacation, etc.): maybe $15K/yr. I made 10K/year my first year out of college, and around $12K/yr my second year out of college and I graduated from a very well respected Aeronautical University in the top 3% of my class- and I was lucky compared to many of my peers at the time! Even though I worked full time, I could have qualified for state assistance if I had chosen to collect it- most flight instructors could at that time.
At this point in his career, our pilot will instruct away building flight time for the hope of making that $200K/yr. at a major airline he reads about in the paper! He'll do that for about 2 or 3 years, lucky to break $20K/yr. if he works 6 to 7 days a week. Eventually he'll earn enough flight time to apply to a regional airline like Mesa, Air Wisconsin, Republic, etc. When the typical UA pilot was out flight instructing, he probably needed around 2,000 flight hours to get on with a regional airline. This pilot needs regional airline flight time in order to get on with a major airline.
So this pilot gets his 2,000 flight hours after a few years of instructing. He's probably in his mid to late 20's, is a college graduate, and so far is lucky if he's broken 20K/year. But he gets hired at a regional airline, and he'll probably get a raise- he can now expect to earn a whopping 20-25K/year as a regional F/O with benefits (finally health insurance!) . My first "crappy airline" job paid me $1500/month (mid 1990s dollars) with benefits and I felt like a millionaire!
So this "average" UA pilot hopeful is working away at a regional airline. It will probably take him a few years before he can make Captain at his regional airline, so while he waits for that Captain upgrade, he's pulling in maybe $25K-$35/year- with 35K/year defitinely on the high end/above average side. When he finally upgrades to Captain at the regional, he's probably in his late 20's/early 30's, and will finally break the $50K/year mark, and that's if he is at a good regional airline. And keep in mind that while this pilot is working at said regional airline, he is working HARD. It can be very difficult flying, although it has gotten better now that most regional airlines have RJ's.
However, to get hired at a major airline, you have to have 1000's of hours of Captain flight time/experience- and hopefully the economy is doing well and his regional airline employer needs Captains. We'll assume that pilot upgrades to Captain in a reasonable amount of time with no delays. He will work for a few more years as a regional airline Captain, probably working his butt off as a junior Captain, and will earn in the neighborhood of $50K/year to maybe 70K/year on the very high end. Not bad money, but one has to keep in mind that this college educated professional worked for many, many years at wages that qualify a family of 4 for state assistance AND is probably carrying a lot of debt. Hopefully, this pilot put off plans to start a family (like I did) or marries well
So our average regional airline Captain has worked away for a few years, and finally has an interview at a major airline like UAL. He's probably in his early to mid 30's, and has 1000's of flight hours and years of experience flying aircraft. He gets that dream major airline job at UAL: starting pay- around $30Kish per year. Note that this "promotion" is a pretty significant pay cut.
Once he gets to an airline like United, he'll probably work as a First Officer for around 8 to 10 years. It will probably take this pilot a few years to get back up to what he was earning as a regional airline Captain. After several years on the UA property, the pilot can expect to probably make in the high 5 figure range, and IF this pilot makes Captain someday at a major airline, he'll might (if he's lucky) be in his very late 30's but probably will likely be in his early to mid 40's and will break the 6 figure mark. If this pilot is lucky enough to complete a full career at one major airline, he MIGHT be senior enough to make widebody Captain and make approximately $180,00/yr. Again, the odds are very much against the average pilot that he will ever attain that position. And if he does, it usually isn't for more than a few years at the end of his career.
And that above path assumes the "perfect" career progression for the average guy. If there is an economic downturn (remember that if the economy coughs, the airlines catch a cold!), said pilot may be stuck flight instructing for a few "extra" years because if the major airlines aren't hiring, they aren't hiring regional airline pilots. And if regional airline pilots aren't getting hired at majors, the regional airlines aren't hiring. And if the regional airlines aren't hiring, you're stuck as a flight instructor.
Working as a Captain at an airline that goes out of business? Sorry, you have to get rehired at another airline and you start all over again! Your airline goes bankrupt? Sorry, you're starting over again somewhere else along with that starting $30K/yr salary mentioned earlier. Accidentally "ding" an airplane or violate a FAR and get a blemish on your record while building your flight time for that major airline dream job? Sorry, you probably aren't getting hired at a major airline now. Bust a checkride somewhere during your career? So sorry, that's going to hurt your career expectations!
In conclusion, yes the top end pay scales are quite high, but the financial sacrifice the typical pilot has to make in order to earn those salaries is quite high as well. It's a risk/reward thing for those of you familiar with financial planning- you take a risk pursuing the airline pilot career, but expect to be rewarded for the risks taken.
If you've been reading in the media about the pilot shortages the regional airlines are currently experiencing, you'll see that the "risk/reward" relationship is way out of balance as a lot fewer young people are choosing to persue this profession for that reason.
Hopefully some of you found this interesting.
Basically, in order to be competitive as an airline pilot, you have to have a 4 year degree. In addition to that, you have to pay for your flight training in order to obtain the certificates necessary to fly commercially, which normally includes your commercial pilot certificate and your flight instructor ratings. So in addition to 4 years of tuition, the typical civilian wannabe airline pilot is shelling out anywhere from $30,000- $50,000 nowadays to obtain all his ratings. Some more if they go to a "high end" school, some less if they go to a local airport.
So now this newly minted pilot has graduated from college and obtained all his ratings. He has about 200 hours, which back when I was building flight time, was nothing. He also has 10's of thousands of dollars of debt beyond his 4 year degree. Out he goes out looking for a flight instruction job. Salary expectation for a flight instructor working full time with ZERO benefits (no health, 401K, vacation, etc.): maybe $15K/yr. I made 10K/year my first year out of college, and around $12K/yr my second year out of college and I graduated from a very well respected Aeronautical University in the top 3% of my class- and I was lucky compared to many of my peers at the time! Even though I worked full time, I could have qualified for state assistance if I had chosen to collect it- most flight instructors could at that time.
At this point in his career, our pilot will instruct away building flight time for the hope of making that $200K/yr. at a major airline he reads about in the paper! He'll do that for about 2 or 3 years, lucky to break $20K/yr. if he works 6 to 7 days a week. Eventually he'll earn enough flight time to apply to a regional airline like Mesa, Air Wisconsin, Republic, etc. When the typical UA pilot was out flight instructing, he probably needed around 2,000 flight hours to get on with a regional airline. This pilot needs regional airline flight time in order to get on with a major airline.
So this pilot gets his 2,000 flight hours after a few years of instructing. He's probably in his mid to late 20's, is a college graduate, and so far is lucky if he's broken 20K/year. But he gets hired at a regional airline, and he'll probably get a raise- he can now expect to earn a whopping 20-25K/year as a regional F/O with benefits (finally health insurance!) . My first "crappy airline" job paid me $1500/month (mid 1990s dollars) with benefits and I felt like a millionaire!
So this "average" UA pilot hopeful is working away at a regional airline. It will probably take him a few years before he can make Captain at his regional airline, so while he waits for that Captain upgrade, he's pulling in maybe $25K-$35/year- with 35K/year defitinely on the high end/above average side. When he finally upgrades to Captain at the regional, he's probably in his late 20's/early 30's, and will finally break the $50K/year mark, and that's if he is at a good regional airline. And keep in mind that while this pilot is working at said regional airline, he is working HARD. It can be very difficult flying, although it has gotten better now that most regional airlines have RJ's.
However, to get hired at a major airline, you have to have 1000's of hours of Captain flight time/experience- and hopefully the economy is doing well and his regional airline employer needs Captains. We'll assume that pilot upgrades to Captain in a reasonable amount of time with no delays. He will work for a few more years as a regional airline Captain, probably working his butt off as a junior Captain, and will earn in the neighborhood of $50K/year to maybe 70K/year on the very high end. Not bad money, but one has to keep in mind that this college educated professional worked for many, many years at wages that qualify a family of 4 for state assistance AND is probably carrying a lot of debt. Hopefully, this pilot put off plans to start a family (like I did) or marries well
So our average regional airline Captain has worked away for a few years, and finally has an interview at a major airline like UAL. He's probably in his early to mid 30's, and has 1000's of flight hours and years of experience flying aircraft. He gets that dream major airline job at UAL: starting pay- around $30Kish per year. Note that this "promotion" is a pretty significant pay cut.
Once he gets to an airline like United, he'll probably work as a First Officer for around 8 to 10 years. It will probably take this pilot a few years to get back up to what he was earning as a regional airline Captain. After several years on the UA property, the pilot can expect to probably make in the high 5 figure range, and IF this pilot makes Captain someday at a major airline, he'll might (if he's lucky) be in his very late 30's but probably will likely be in his early to mid 40's and will break the 6 figure mark. If this pilot is lucky enough to complete a full career at one major airline, he MIGHT be senior enough to make widebody Captain and make approximately $180,00/yr. Again, the odds are very much against the average pilot that he will ever attain that position. And if he does, it usually isn't for more than a few years at the end of his career.
And that above path assumes the "perfect" career progression for the average guy. If there is an economic downturn (remember that if the economy coughs, the airlines catch a cold!), said pilot may be stuck flight instructing for a few "extra" years because if the major airlines aren't hiring, they aren't hiring regional airline pilots. And if regional airline pilots aren't getting hired at majors, the regional airlines aren't hiring. And if the regional airlines aren't hiring, you're stuck as a flight instructor.
Working as a Captain at an airline that goes out of business? Sorry, you have to get rehired at another airline and you start all over again! Your airline goes bankrupt? Sorry, you're starting over again somewhere else along with that starting $30K/yr salary mentioned earlier. Accidentally "ding" an airplane or violate a FAR and get a blemish on your record while building your flight time for that major airline dream job? Sorry, you probably aren't getting hired at a major airline now. Bust a checkride somewhere during your career? So sorry, that's going to hurt your career expectations!
In conclusion, yes the top end pay scales are quite high, but the financial sacrifice the typical pilot has to make in order to earn those salaries is quite high as well. It's a risk/reward thing for those of you familiar with financial planning- you take a risk pursuing the airline pilot career, but expect to be rewarded for the risks taken.
If you've been reading in the media about the pilot shortages the regional airlines are currently experiencing, you'll see that the "risk/reward" relationship is way out of balance as a lot fewer young people are choosing to persue this profession for that reason.
Hopefully some of you found this interesting.
Last edited by waterfalls123; Jan 6, 2008 at 9:20 am
Jan 5, 2008, 2:40 pm
#24
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 23,999
Truly a fascinating post, waterfalls123, thanks for taking the time to share it!^
Jan 5, 2008, 2:44 pm
#25
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: FL 290 through FL390
Posts: 1,687
FYI, the 777 and 747 pay scales are identical. The 747 pay rate was reduced to match 777 pay. That also happened with Airbus pay. It was dropped to 737 pay scale. Then, we all took 30% at first, which was a large % compared to the other employees, but we took it along with the promise of not terminating our pensions. In '05, we all took another 11.8% cut. Oh, yeah, they got our pensions in '05, too.
Freshairborne
Jan 5, 2008, 3:00 pm
#26
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: FL 290 through FL390
Posts: 1,687
By the way, ALPA for the most part, does not respond publicly to the drivel that upper management spins, and people tend to take a dim view of unions anyway. That is unfortunate because the pilots' unions, not just ALPA, but also those like American pilots' APA, SWA's SWAPA, IPA, etc are the ones whom ensure that some Federal Regulation that represents the very minimum acceptable safety standards is addressed and if needed, revised to provide a higher level of safety than the bare minimum. So, in a way, you bash those who have your safety at their forefront. Management has their bottom line, though, so rest assured that they, got your back on that!
Cheers
Fresh
Jan 5, 2008, 3:14 pm
#27
Moderator: Mileage Run, United Airlines; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Jan 5, 2008, 3:14 pm
#28
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Central Virginia
Programs: UA 2MM
Posts: 1,231
waterfalls123 Thanks for the post.
Jan 5, 2008, 4:31 pm
#29
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Not at home
Programs: MP
Posts: 2,312
He didn't work during the strike in 1985, so I wouldn't make too many assumptions based on the fact that his name isn't there.
For what it's worth, I consider myself a pretty customer engaging type of pilot, and I'm on that list. Being on that list doesn't mean you don't turn on Channel 9, don't go out of your way for the customer, and don't have fun at work...
For what it's worth, I consider myself a pretty customer engaging type of pilot, and I'm on that list. Being on that list doesn't mean you don't turn on Channel 9, don't go out of your way for the customer, and don't have fun at work...
).
Jan 5, 2008, 4:38 pm
#30
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: LAX
Programs: UA 1K, Kimpton Inner Circle
Posts: 155