How much rest is required for crew?
Sep 15, 2018, 10:14 pm
#1
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How much rest is required for crew?
For HKG flight, inbound (night before was early) was fine for this airplane more than 12 hours before? Just curious if crew needs 1+ days off or more? (I know many of the in- flight staff are HKG based, not sure about pilots though?)
United Flight 862
Status: Your flight was delayed because your original crew did not have sufficient off-duty/rest time required by federal law. Again, we're sorry for the inconvenience. (Arrived Gate 4 Hours 35 Minutes Late)
Gate: 41
Check-in Terminal:
Scheduled Time: 11:15 a.m.
Scheduled Date: Sat., Sep. 15, 2018
Actual Time: 3:28 p.m.
Actual Date: Sat., Sep. 15, 2018City: San Francisco, CA, US (SFO)
Gate: 95
DEPARTS
ARRIVES
City: Hong Kong (HKG)Gate: 41
Check-in Terminal:
Scheduled Time: 11:15 a.m.
Scheduled Date: Sat., Sep. 15, 2018
Actual Time: 3:28 p.m.
Actual Date: Sat., Sep. 15, 2018City: San Francisco, CA, US (SFO)
Gate: 95
Sep 15, 2018, 10:36 pm
#2
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FAA (or its corresponding international agencies) set the minimum rest time. A union can then further lobby to increase the minimum rest time.
So to your specific question about an early arrival into SFO - my guess is both contracts guaranteed a minimum rest of at least 24 hrs, thus the bid lines are created with a 24-hour rest. If the plane arrives early the FAs will have a longer rest at the price of foregoing whatever pay was not accrued due to the early arrival. I'd hesitantly guess its possible for an FA to voluntarily waive the contractual rest requirements assuming they are not running afoul of regulatory requirements (?) but doubt it would be practical to do so.
....plus the time off in an exotic city is a perk of the job.
The real question you should ask is just how senior are the resort destinations which operate less than daily. Think PPT with 5x weekly service where there are forced 48-hour layovers, with room and board on UA's dime. Such a line must be one of the most senior (if not THE most senior) line in the company!
So to your specific question about an early arrival into SFO - my guess is both contracts guaranteed a minimum rest of at least 24 hrs, thus the bid lines are created with a 24-hour rest. If the plane arrives early the FAs will have a longer rest at the price of foregoing whatever pay was not accrued due to the early arrival. I'd hesitantly guess its possible for an FA to voluntarily waive the contractual rest requirements assuming they are not running afoul of regulatory requirements (?) but doubt it would be practical to do so.
....plus the time off in an exotic city is a perk of the job.
The real question you should ask is just how senior are the resort destinations which operate less than daily. Think PPT with 5x weekly service where there are forced 48-hour layovers, with room and board on UA's dime. Such a line must be one of the most senior (if not THE most senior) line in the company!
Last edited by J.Edward; Sep 17, 2018 at 12:10 pm
Sep 16, 2018, 4:18 am
#4
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....plus the time off in an exotic city is a perk of the job.
The real question you should ask is just how senior are the resort destinations which operate less than daily. Think PPT with 5x weekly service where there are forced 48-hour layovers, with room and board on UA's dime. Such a line must be one of the most senior (if not THE most senior) line in the company!
The real question you should ask is just how senior are the resort destinations which operate less than daily. Think PPT with 5x weekly service where there are forced 48-hour layovers, with room and board on UA's dime. Such a line must be one of the most senior (if not THE most senior) line in the company!
Sep 16, 2018, 4:23 am
#5
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https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.1059
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.1061
Minimum rest can be up to 24 hours in an augmented crew scenario, depending on the length of duty day.
Sep 16, 2018, 9:06 am
#7
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That is a very basic and incomplete take on the law.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.1059
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.1061
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.1059
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.1061
The short answer is that it's complicated. The required rest period will depend on factors that someone on the outside will not be able to know.
Those types of long-haul layovers, however, are generally at least 24 hours.
Sep 16, 2018, 10:40 am
#8
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For HKG flight, inbound (night before was early) was fine for this airplane more than 12 hours before? Just curious if crew needs 1+ days off or more? (I know many of the in- flight staff are HKG based, not sure about pilots though?)
United Flight 862
Status: Your flight was delayed because your original crew did not have sufficient off-duty/rest time required by federal law. Again, we're sorry for the inconvenience. (Arrived Gate 4 Hours 35 Minutes Late)
Gate: 41
Check-in Terminal:
Scheduled Time: 11:15 a.m.
Scheduled Date: Sat., Sep. 15, 2018
Actual Time: 3:28 p.m.
Actual Date: Sat., Sep. 15, 2018City: San Francisco, CA, US (SFO)
Gate: 95
DEPARTS
ARRIVES
City: Hong Kong (HKG)Gate: 41
Check-in Terminal:
Scheduled Time: 11:15 a.m.
Scheduled Date: Sat., Sep. 15, 2018
Actual Time: 3:28 p.m.
Actual Date: Sat., Sep. 15, 2018City: San Francisco, CA, US (SFO)
Gate: 95
crews don’t necessarily just turn, especially on ULR flights. I’m not sure how HKG works as a station, but The crew of your flight is not necessarily even coming inbound from your destination, much less off the inbound flight from the night before. As an example, it’s possible that a crew rotates ORD-HKG-SFO, as opposed to SFO-HKG-SFO. I’m not saying that’s for sure the routing, but that it’s possible.
Sep 16, 2018, 11:06 am
#9
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After one of our flights ORD-HKG, my wife and I talked to the purser while we were waiting for our ride into town. She was based in HKG and she said her next flight back to the US was one week away. We were sorry that we were coming back 10 days later (and would miss her) because she was a great purser and the FAs working under her were very nice and efficient.
On our last flight to PVG, we talked to some of the FAs and they said that they were staying 3 days in PVG and United was putting them in a Marriott. They seemed pretty happy about it.
On our last flight to PVG, we talked to some of the FAs and they said that they were staying 3 days in PVG and United was putting them in a Marriott. They seemed pretty happy about it.
Sep 16, 2018, 11:20 am
#10
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The pilot's flight time, duty, and rest requirements are from 14 CFR 117, not 14 CFR 91....
Sep 16, 2018, 11:23 am
#11
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 579
Some possibilities:
- The pilot's eight hour sleep opportunity got interrupted requiring the eight hour clock to be reset. A fire alarm going off at a hotel would be sufficient to restart the eight hour clock.
- A crew member got sick at the outstation, requiring crew scheduling to reshuffle crews. There may have been crews there for a two day layover, and in order to shorten it, the eight hour rest opportunity restarts.
- In addition to following the guidelines of part 117 (pilot rest rules), the airline has to develop a fatigue risk management plan which has applicable sections to ultra-long haul flights. There may have been variables not so obvious which happened days earlier requiring a certain duration of rest in order to keep you safe with a safe crew.
- The pilot's eight hour sleep opportunity got interrupted requiring the eight hour clock to be reset. A fire alarm going off at a hotel would be sufficient to restart the eight hour clock.
- A crew member got sick at the outstation, requiring crew scheduling to reshuffle crews. There may have been crews there for a two day layover, and in order to shorten it, the eight hour rest opportunity restarts.
- In addition to following the guidelines of part 117 (pilot rest rules), the airline has to develop a fatigue risk management plan which has applicable sections to ultra-long haul flights. There may have been variables not so obvious which happened days earlier requiring a certain duration of rest in order to keep you safe with a safe crew.
Sep 16, 2018, 1:29 pm
#12
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I used to fly EWR-HKG J regularly with a 2 day stay (e.g., arriving evening Tuesday, returning Thursday morning). I always seemed to get the same crew on the return flight. It's been a while, and I think the rules changed since then requiring an extra day for the FA's.
Sep 16, 2018, 3:26 pm
#13
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Location: EWR, BDL
Posts: 4,471
I used to fly EWR-HKG J regularly with a 2 day stay (e.g., arriving evening Tuesday, returning Thursday morning). I always seemed to get the same crew on the return flight. It's been a while, and I think the rules changed since then requiring an extra day for the FA's.
Sep 17, 2018, 11:45 am
#14
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Deadheading crew is the reason
This is most likely related to the typhoon which shut down the city on Sunday.
UA canceled the two whole days of flights--all Fri-Sat/Sat-Sun westbounds and Sun/Mon eastbounds were canceled.
Tuesday departures are all delayed due to crew rest. Normal crew rest is two nights.
That means they evacuated the Thu-Fri westbound crew by deadheading them on Sat eastbounds.
And then deadheading another crew on Sun-Mon westbounds to operate Tue eastbounds.
Even deadheading has rest requirements, and that's the reason for pre- and post-storm delays.
UA canceled the two whole days of flights--all Fri-Sat/Sat-Sun westbounds and Sun/Mon eastbounds were canceled.
Tuesday departures are all delayed due to crew rest. Normal crew rest is two nights.
That means they evacuated the Thu-Fri westbound crew by deadheading them on Sat eastbounds.
And then deadheading another crew on Sun-Mon westbounds to operate Tue eastbounds.
Even deadheading has rest requirements, and that's the reason for pre- and post-storm delays.
Jan 20, 2019, 6:17 am
#15
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For a domestic flight would 15+ hours be considered a normal crew requirement? UA 638 on 01/20.
***UPDATE****
Nevermind! Parts of the original crew was hi-jacked for a different flight.
***UPDATE****
Nevermind! Parts of the original crew was hi-jacked for a different flight.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Jan 22, 2019 at 7:01 am Reason: merged update / consecutive posts by same member