squeakr

We had a massive delay EWR - SFO on Saturday the 18th and I have some questions I was hoping the more knowledgeable folks among you can answer. I'll try to make this as brief as I can as I realize that details I find important may not really be relevant.

Flight 1584 was scheduled to leave at 4:59 PM EWR - SFO. We boarded on time, But because the pilots had not arrived there was no way to turn on the AC or use the air ducts above our seats. It easily climbed to high 80s inside the plane, and many people were angry and upset. Not relevant to the delay particularly but just gives you an idea of how it progressed from here.

At approximately 445 the purser announced that the pilots had been delayed on their inbound flight. They had a new crew coming he would probably not be there till shortly after five. The FO and pilot arrived about 5:05, and the FO (who made all of the announcements after this point as well) said that as soon as they filed their flight plan and checked everything out we would be leaving for a relatively quick departure.

about 530 the FO announced that there were some weather issues which caused a backup so we would not be leaving for the next half hour -40 minutes. Flight attendants came around with water.

about 6 o'clock we began to taxi to the runway but then sat there another half hour or so before the first officer came on and said the backup was worse than he expected, and that ground control wasn't even answering his questions about when we might be leaving. He said he'd update us as soon as he knew.

We sat there about another half hour 40 minutes at which point the first officer came on and said that he asked for permission to turn off the engines as they were using a lot of fuel but hasn't heard back. He again indicated he would update us soon.

A short while later, maybe 715 or so, the first officer said he was turning off the engines despite not hearing back from ground control because otherwise he wouldn't have enough fuel to make the trip.

short time after that, the first officer came back on the intercom to say that we now had clearance to leave, but in turning the engine back on he'd encountered a "hot start" so we needed to be towed back to the gate for the mechanics to inspect the engine. We had to wait about half an hour for a tug which got us back to the gate right around 8 o'clock. The passenger next to us was an aviation buff and said "oh no hot start going to have to double check the engine now because that can really cause some problems."

once at the gate, the screen showed a new departure time of 915 which we knew was random. They did handout snacks and bottles of water while waiting.

We reboarded about 9 - 915 but at 930 or so were told by the first officer that we had to wait to refuel as well as wait for catering to board the plane. I mentioned to Mr. squeaker "all God I hope the crew doesn't go illegal." At which point the purser smiled and said "hey we're fresh we just started with this flight so we're good."

Since they were backed up trying to refuel all the planes that had been idling for so long that took another hour. We finally left sometime around 1030 -10:45 PM.

so here's the questions I have:

1. Although I hated the extreme heat waiting for the pilot, I understood that without a pilot you can't turn stuff on on the plane. But aside from the requirement of having to deplane after X hours, so any requirement to have a tolerable temperature? they were definitely a couple of babies on board who were really suffering and screaming.

2. It seems the flight crew was in a no-win situation – if they kept idling, they'd have to refuel anyway but it was so jammed and backed up they couldn't talk to anyone to get permission to do so at which point I don't know if it would have been granted. So how grievous was the flight crews offense and turning off the engine without permission? It seems like this started the major problems that we had, as if we'd only had to refuel, the delay would have been substantially less.

3. when does the clock start ticking for having to deplane? we certainly were on the plane for more than the three hour max, we weren't on the tarmac the entire time – some was at the gate, some was waiting to go etc. The main delay that made it impossible to deplane seems to have come from having to wait on the tarmac to be towed back to the gate. However, we were specifically told before that happened that anyone who left the plane would not be allowed to return. is that legal?

4. We were also told specifically by the first officer that they couldn't refuel until catering had boarded. Is that even a thing? While we did appreciate having a hot meal once we left, I think most of us would've skipped it to have refueling happen sooner.

5. The entire time, there was no clear information about the delay on either United website or United app. They showed the plane departing at 548 up until about 9 o'clock or so when the correct information was posted. Don't the rules include a requirement to post accurate information about flight delays?

My main question is with the pilots have been better off letting plain idle for another hour or so and then having to refuel. I assume there's a reason why they have to get permission to turn off the engine and in this case the first officer/pilot clearly flouted that requirement. How big a boo-boo is this?

I'm not asking these questions for a lawsuit or any kind of compensation – we got our standard hundred dollars as we just regular members, and honestly it was just more of a pain in anything else. I'm just really curious on what level the cluster mess occurred.

In another small piece of good news, we have purchased a yearly travel insurance plan which covered the cost of our car service back home.

LarryJ

The pilots have to be there to start the APU and run the aircraft's internal airconditioning system. Ground pre-conditioned air (PC air--the yellow hose) should have been connected providing cool air--even if not cool enough, but your description sounds like it wasn't. The problem there is it is usually the pilots who would call to have the PC air hooked up if the ramp crew had neglected to do it. I'm not sure if the F/As have a way to call for PC air or know how to do so. I'll ask on my next trip what options they have when we aren't there.

I'm not aware of any specific cabin temperature requirements. I, too, have seen cases where the F/As and/or gate agent weren't assertive enough (IMO) in ensuring the cabin was reasonably cool/warm when passengers were on board. Company policy is that comfort comes before efficiency so all employees should feel empowered to step up and be proactive in such situations. When I ask F/As about the cabin temp they often respond, "no complaints", so please let them know if you are uncomfortable.

The only reason we ask ATC about shutting down is that, once shut down, it will take several minutes warning before we could move the aircraft again. It is to make sure that we won't be in the way and need to move on short notice.

For a departure, it starts when the main cabin door is closed.

The long tarmac delay rules requires the passengers to be informed when the opportunity to deplane is available. If the opportunity is not offered then the tarmac delay clock continues to run. There is no requirement to wait for everyone to return. They will try to get everyone back on board but that is not a legal requirement and we don't want to add even more time to an already long delay.

Not as stated. My guess is that there wasn't room for both the fuel truck and catering truck--one would block the other.

How can you post accurate delay information when nobody, including ATC, knows an accurate departure time estimate?

I doubt they had enough fuel to keep an engine running for the entire delay then depart without refueling. You have more than enough to cover anticipated delays but sometimes the delays are far in excess of what was anticipated and/or other constraints prevent carrying more.

I was through EWR on the evening of the 18th as well. It was a mess. The thunderstorms blocked the departure routes causing ATC to stop all departures for an extended period of time. Too many arrivals were allowed to continue to land creating a near-gridlock situation on the taxiways. ATC ran out of room to put the airplanes waiting for the departure routes to reopen so all the gates were clogged with departures that couldn't push and/or taxi. That meant that arrivals couldn't get to their gates because they were either still occupied or blocked by the airplanes that were waiting to takeoff.

rotatev2

At EWR air conditioning should be provided via a tube connected the aircraft. You can learn more here: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/q...d-to-a-757-for So you should've had cool air available to you for the entire time the jet-bridge was connected to the aircraft. I don't believe DOT rules regulate the required temperature on the aircraft while waiting for a delay. Here is what I've found:


When the jet bridge is pulled back from the aircraft I believe.

WineCountryUA

yes

A couple of resources detailing what needs to be done in this circumstances
What is a “Tarmac Delay”? -- US DOT
United Airlines Tarmac Delay Contingency Plan

BThumme

Sounds like these storms really caused some havoc these last couple days. Just reading this and the UA TLV thread, seems like not a fun couple of days at EWR.

AAExPlat

This story sounds brutal. I have had MANY similar experiences this year on UA, mostly at EWR, to boot. I do think that UA has devolved at EWR this year. I think part of it has been weather, part of it ha been ATC management due to heavy traffic into NYC airspace, part of it has been terrible employee morale, and part of it has been UA processes that simply don't work.

In June and July, I have experienced at least 25+ hours of cummulative delays. Probably more delays in those 2 months than in the prior 2 years combined. And mostly from EWR at all times of day.

LarryJ

Don't forget the FAA decision to remove slot restrictions at EWR. From my perspective in the cockpit, that has had a huge impact.

Regarding employee morale... UAL is my sixth airline since 1990. The overall employee morale that I see with my co-workers is, by far, the best I have ever seen in those 28+ years.

Often1

With the exception of the cabin temperature, the rest of this is all due to the vagaries of weather and the havoc it plays. Storm systems which are moving speedily can slow down, shift direction and the like. All ATC knows is what is in the cards at the moment. But, nobody knows for certain what the case will be 30 minutes later.

Frankly, one would hope that ground air was hooked up and should never have been disconnected until the crew boarded. So that fail really was avoidable.

AAExPlat

Good point, LarryJ! As far as morale concerned, I will once again concede that my experiences are very EWR centric (but metric craptons of them) and I WISH I could get the same vibe you get from your co-workers. Unfortunately, it often feels like they are mailing it in because they, too, are subject to the same insane and never-ending delays and problems. That said, I am glad to hear things are going well for you and your co-workers at UA.

clubord

LarryJ

That will certainly wear on a person. I could not do their job.

I don't understand why the FAA and port authority went in this direction. From my perspective, a better plan would have been to further limit the slots at both EWR and LGA so as to provide an incentive to the airlines to up-gauge to larger aircraft to meet the demand in place of more flights. As it is now, an airline that up-gauges and reduces frequency is likely to see their competitors move in with more frequency resulting in loss of market share and no improvement in congestion delays.

squeakr

This is so helpful as well as interesting. A couple of points -

re:5. Don't the rules include a requirement to post accurate information about flight delays?
How can you post accurate delay information when nobody, including ATC, knows an accurate departure time estimate?
I realize they would not be able to post a new departure time till they had some idea. My point is that neither United.com nor the United app nor any of the phone reps had any idea that the flight was delayed at all – they all showed it as departing at 5:48 PM. so for those that were trying to book alternate arrangements, they were not able to do so and could not be protected on other flights.

Interesting about the air conditioning hookup – I had no idea there was something they could have done while we're still at the gate. Again it was pretty intolerable but others suffered way more than I did.

About turning off the engine – is a hot start a common consequence? I would imagine that with weather delays etc. it would be a pretty common place occurrence to turn off the engines. Without the delay of having to have the mechanics inspect the plane, I think we likely would have left somewhere around 8-8:30 PM which at that point most folks would've been content with.

Thanks for the point about the catering truck and the fuel truck not being able to occupy the same space. Because the first officer actually indicated that when he looked out the window, he saw that the catering truck and the fuel truck were both there so he wondered himself what the delay was in getting the fuel.


Again we were on our way home so to be honest it was more of an adventure than a PI TA. I feel for the folks who were traveling on, as they really were going to be able to get much sleep before their next flights but thanks so much for all the interesting information. I agree that Newark is a sorry mess – almost everyone I know who's transited through his had some complaint or other.

AAExPlat

100% agreed on all counts. I could not do their job either And EWR is now the airport that routinely has the longest delays. Longer than LGA and longer than JFK. I, too, believe the right course of action was to retain the slot methodology as the unrestricted system incentivizes airline behavior that is not conducive to a healthy NYC airspace. For most occasional travelers, this is, of course, of no concern. For guys like me who travel into and out of EWR every week for work, this has become a lightning rod issue. I imagine the same to be true for EWR based flight crew and even EWR based ground personnel. This summer has been hell for us fliers and UA staff at EWR. And because of its' sheer size, UA also bears the brunt of these ATC delays far worse than the smaller players at EWR. AA delays usually don't get as bad at EWR as UA delays because the domino effect is far less severe for them.

The end result is that I am now flying a more expensive paid F fare on AA with a connection rather than to fly paid F UA non-stop because the non-stop got me home at 3-4am practically every week with 4 hour delays. That has caused a significant number of issues for me because I have to be back at my desk at 8am the next morning every time. If that happens occasionally, no biggie. But since it happened virtually every week, I started to experience chronic fatigue. As UA navigates this issue at EWR, it may need to look at the possibility that even the increase in delays w are seeing this year may impact its market share and yields.

LarryJ

No, but they do happen.

That was just a guess. Normally, fueling and catering can occur simultaneously.

LarryJ

The peak summer schedule is ending now (this week?) so things should be improving.