Kirby says passengers choose price over seat pitch
May 30, 2017, 7:33 am
#76
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Each 1000 pounds of added weight, on this flight, cost us 83 pounds, about 12.4 gallons, of additional fuel burn. That works out to less than 2.4 gallons per passenger. The flight was planned to burn just over 2000 gallons total so each additional passenger added approximately 0.12% to the fuel burn.
May 30, 2017, 7:52 am
#77
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I've tried Spirit. My cynical suspicions confirmed. Base fare + $40 fee for a carry-on + seat selection charge = as much or more than a ticket on a normal airline. Between that and the chaos factor, I would not do it again except as a last resort. Spirit has deposited irrops credits in my account that I do not intend to use.
It's important to note that Spirit's main success factor is the unbundling of services -- they advertise a low fare that you in practice probably cannot or would not pay, given that you at least take a carry-on bag. Fail to pre-pay your carry-on fee and march up to the gate with a bag, and they will charge you another $100, which may exceed your base fare. This is like scoring a middling deal on a middling hotel on Priceline, then rolling up and being charged $100 for valet parking; it makes the value of the original deal moot.
The weird thing to me about BE and other legacy plays for the Spirit base is the me-tooism. Rather than emphasizing all you get on a legacy airline (Southwest never lets you forget you get free checked bags, no change fees, non-expiring RR points, etc.), United emphasizes all you don't get on its lowest fares.
It's important to note that Spirit's main success factor is the unbundling of services -- they advertise a low fare that you in practice probably cannot or would not pay, given that you at least take a carry-on bag. Fail to pre-pay your carry-on fee and march up to the gate with a bag, and they will charge you another $100, which may exceed your base fare. This is like scoring a middling deal on a middling hotel on Priceline, then rolling up and being charged $100 for valet parking; it makes the value of the original deal moot.
The weird thing to me about BE and other legacy plays for the Spirit base is the me-tooism. Rather than emphasizing all you get on a legacy airline (Southwest never lets you forget you get free checked bags, no change fees, non-expiring RR points, etc.), United emphasizes all you don't get on its lowest fares.
I'd be livid. Even if I KNEW the charges existed. I actually had someone on twitter in response to an aviation account say she is flying Iceland Air because Delta has E Fares now. I explained the limitations of their lowest fares and when you factor it all in the DL fare is almost equal. And that puts no value on any potential issue fixes.
May 30, 2017, 8:00 am
#78
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Maybe for an irrational (in economic terms) buyer, $93 + $40 + $35 + $10 feels like less than $139.
May 30, 2017, 8:00 am
#79
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E+ being the last to fill is a reflection of the number of elites who've abandoned UACO. This was the profitable, loyal MP membership of both self funded travellers as well as mid level company paid travellers that JeffCo and his SVPs decided to treat as dirt and drive away.
So the cheaper, lower cost fare buckets are selling out early so that the back of the plane gets filled but with not terribly profitable seats. Those who have status and/or can plan their travel in advance are buying into lower cost F and J buckets.
UACO has been trying to monetize everything including bundling E+, selling E+ subscriptions, etc. Now they are applying the same logic to BE but as an un-bundle - or pricing up all of the other fare buckets so that they can look cheap on Google Flights.
As others have said, there's a difference between customers and passengers. Especially those who have figured out that United Continental doesn't deliver the experience and performance that they advertise, they've changed their loyalties and taken a different airline. Others, as shows on this forum, are daily weighing the TODs/HODs options since CPUs, RPUs and GPUs are decreasing in value and benefit.
If Mr. Kirby thinks that the only way to go is to force his elites to purchase more and more, then they will - up to a point. And then they'll do something else - which JeffCo found out anyway.
David
So the cheaper, lower cost fare buckets are selling out early so that the back of the plane gets filled but with not terribly profitable seats. Those who have status and/or can plan their travel in advance are buying into lower cost F and J buckets.
UACO has been trying to monetize everything including bundling E+, selling E+ subscriptions, etc. Now they are applying the same logic to BE but as an un-bundle - or pricing up all of the other fare buckets so that they can look cheap on Google Flights.
As others have said, there's a difference between customers and passengers. Especially those who have figured out that United Continental doesn't deliver the experience and performance that they advertise, they've changed their loyalties and taken a different airline. Others, as shows on this forum, are daily weighing the TODs/HODs options since CPUs, RPUs and GPUs are decreasing in value and benefit.
If Mr. Kirby thinks that the only way to go is to force his elites to purchase more and more, then they will - up to a point. And then they'll do something else - which JeffCo found out anyway.
David
++All of this plus the safety issue of cramming more and more seats into every plane.
While I prefer not to book on Southwest - even though I live much closer to MDW than to ORD- I have to admit that many people flock to Southwest (even though their fares are not always the lowest, but people assume they are always the lowest) because of the experience: a reputation for frequent, friendly service; on time departures/arrivals; no baggage fees; and what they come to find out, better pitch than most other airlines.
As has been noted elsewhere of FT, what non-elite passengers get on United is inconsistent at the least.
What elite flyers, who still remain loyal in spite of United's loyalty only to those who are willing to pay big bucks, get is E+ (thank goodness - at least until they decide to take that away too), and in theory other perks, which are often impossible to obtain.
May 30, 2017, 8:05 am
#80
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++All of this plus the safety issue of cramming more and more seats into every plane.
While I prefer not to book on Southwest - even though I live much closer to MDW than to ORD- I have to admit that many people flock to Southwest (even though their fares are not always the lowest, but people assume they are always the lowest) because of the experience: a reputation for frequent, friendly service; on time departures/arrivals; no baggage fees; and what they come to find out, better pitch than most other airlines.
As has been noted elsewhere of FT, what non-elite passengers get on United is inconsistent at the least.
What elite flyers, who still remain loyal in spite of United's loyalty only to those who are willing to pay big bucks, get is E+ (thank goodness - at least until they decide to take that away too), and in theory other perks, which are often impossible to obtain.
While I prefer not to book on Southwest - even though I live much closer to MDW than to ORD- I have to admit that many people flock to Southwest (even though their fares are not always the lowest, but people assume they are always the lowest) because of the experience: a reputation for frequent, friendly service; on time departures/arrivals; no baggage fees; and what they come to find out, better pitch than most other airlines.
As has been noted elsewhere of FT, what non-elite passengers get on United is inconsistent at the least.
What elite flyers, who still remain loyal in spite of United's loyalty only to those who are willing to pay big bucks, get is E+ (thank goodness - at least until they decide to take that away too), and in theory other perks, which are often impossible to obtain.
Elite passengers get inconsistent everything on United as well.
May 30, 2017, 8:05 am
#81
Join Date: Jul 2012
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I'll be curious to see if the trend of buying solely on price will start to change now that Y has the tightest pitch and narrowest seats we've ever seen, particularly on long haul routes. At a certain point, even price-driven travelers have their breaking points. It would be helpful if booking sites made cabin comfort data points more prominent (Google Flights does a decent job commenting on seat pitch when you select a flight, especially noticeable on ULLCs).
May 30, 2017, 8:12 am
#82
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To take an example from the retail sector, "buy more save more" is completely irrational but it's hugely successful.
I'll be curious to see if the trend of buying solely on price will start to change now that Y has the tightest pitch and narrowest seats we've ever seen, particularly on long haul routes. At a certain point, even price-driven travelers have their breaking points.
May 30, 2017, 8:22 am
#83
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While there are people who are always looking for the cheapest option the airlines encourage it.
They nickel and dime for everything so the net costs goes up and up (flying domestic is now sometime more expensive than flying to Europe).
United is not build as a no frills airline > Southwest is better and cheaper / or maybe look at JetBlue
And what is the alternative to coach? Adding 50% to the costs to fly E+ or tripling the costs for First .... just no doable for many.
United has a PR problem already and this doesn't help at all.
But Ryanair has a totally different business model (smaller airports / 9 Euro flights as sales ....). The customer pays little and gets little. United offers little but wants to be paid well.
They nickel and dime for everything so the net costs goes up and up (flying domestic is now sometime more expensive than flying to Europe).
United is not build as a no frills airline > Southwest is better and cheaper / or maybe look at JetBlue
And what is the alternative to coach? Adding 50% to the costs to fly E+ or tripling the costs for First .... just no doable for many.
United has a PR problem already and this doesn't help at all.
But Ryanair has a totally different business model (smaller airports / 9 Euro flights as sales ....). The customer pays little and gets little. United offers little but wants to be paid well.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; May 30, 2017 at 10:45 pm Reason: merging consecutive posts by same member -- please use multi-quote
May 30, 2017, 8:33 am
#84
Join Date: Mar 2011
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He is right but wrong at the same time. Most leasure travelers are going to go on Google see the same pitch between all the 3 big legacies airlines and go with the cheapest as they have such a negative view towards the them, aka they all suck equally so I will fly the cheapest.
May 30, 2017, 8:34 am
#85
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People line up to be mistreated by Ryanair. I wouldn't fly them for free. They deserve to be out of business, but are instead hugely profitable. Sad comment on the decisions consumers make when they are driven solely by price.
May 30, 2017, 8:36 am
#86
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Southwest is honest, but not always cheap. Spirit appears cheap but profits from dishonest cost presentation.
United is supposed to be a full-service airline but treats most customers stingily, even brutally -- and even betrays / repels HVFs on an unpredictable but regular basis.
JetBlue can be a bargain or absurdly expensive, depending on a spin of the roulette wheel, but its marginally better inflight product is balanced out by slim frequencies and terrible irrops recovery.
The thing about United is, it wants to be all things to all flyers, but brand perceptions are driven by what's going on at the lowest end. Not too many people are talking about Polaris, but everyone's talking about BE prison-plane fares.
You can't operate Silversea Cruises and Greyhound buses under the same brand umbrella. It doesn't help Greyhound, and it damages Silversea.
Last edited by BearX220; May 30, 2017 at 9:24 am Reason: Fix typo
May 30, 2017, 8:39 am
#87
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Also, I have managed to fly Spirit while avoiding every single optional fee. It can be done, but it's not worth it for me at this point in my life.
May 30, 2017, 9:02 am
#88
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 674
Thats why Carnival owns and operates 5 or 6 different brands.
Really, you expect a person to do the same level of research for a $250 trip that they would do for a HOUSE?
Insane.
When I load up a flight search, I get presented with arrival time, departure time, price, and connections.
I am supposed to go out of my way and figure out that 'United" means something very different when it is a 737-900 and a 757 on the exact same route. Oh look, and a 777 is available. Bigger is better right? Where exactly on the purchasing screen am I being told it is 10-across 17-inch widths?
I flew San Diego to Newark on a United plane. It happened to have slim seats, ZERO entertainment, and ZERO power outlets. On a brand new plane. It was a miserable flight.
I made the decision at that point to avoid United on my cross-country flights. I shouldn't have to do the same level of work I would make when buying a house to figure out if my trip will be absolutely garbage.
Instead Ill buy Jetblue, where I am getting the exact same experience every time.
May 30, 2017, 9:28 am
#89
Join Date: Nov 2016
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But that was tried already. Look at Ted and Song. Both essentially Delta and United, but the tried to separate the branding to do just what you mentioned. Neither were successful.
May 30, 2017, 9:39 am
#90
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 3,361
This is not correct analysis.
1. E+ sells very well and there is data to prove this. The analysis was done carefully after the merger as CO was going to get rid of it, but did not due to the strong sales numbers
2. the customer who buys Spirit is not the customer who buys United, Delta or AA. Two completely different markets, two different business models, two completely different cost structures. Comparing the two is nonsensical
3. every US carrier offers the same product, and if every carrier removed one row of seats and standardized at 33" of pitch as the baseline and every airline sold fares that reflected this, then every customer would pay higher baseline fares. We are talking about 20-40$ more on average, and this is not going to cause any significant portion of the market to suddenly run to Spirit, Allegiant, etc.
1. E+ sells very well and there is data to prove this. The analysis was done carefully after the merger as CO was going to get rid of it, but did not due to the strong sales numbers
2. the customer who buys Spirit is not the customer who buys United, Delta or AA. Two completely different markets, two different business models, two completely different cost structures. Comparing the two is nonsensical
3. every US carrier offers the same product, and if every carrier removed one row of seats and standardized at 33" of pitch as the baseline and every airline sold fares that reflected this, then every customer would pay higher baseline fares. We are talking about 20-40$ more on average, and this is not going to cause any significant portion of the market to suddenly run to Spirit, Allegiant, etc.
BE and Y+ are efforts to segment the brand within the same airplane. We will see if it works.