United Airlines President: Leaving New York’s JFK ‘Was the Wrong Decision’ {2017}
Apr 22, 2017, 12:56 pm
#166
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Let's look at the quote from Kirby again:
So from the way I (and most other posters I think, except for the few who think Kirby's lying through his teeth) read it: some corporate customers (particularly in LAX) are indeed "passionate about having SFO/LAX-JFK for [their] corporate travel" and therefore dropped UA when p.s. moved, which although "cute, but limiting" still was a rather significant issue.
Therefore although yes many corporate customers don't care about the difference between JFK/EWR, what Kirby is highlighting is that UA lost those who did care when they quit JFK, and these contracts seemed to have been rather significant, which is what many of us had foreseen since the beginning when this was announced. And thus that explains channa's point:
So from the way I (and most other posters I think, except for the few who think Kirby's lying through his teeth) read it: some corporate customers (particularly in LAX) are indeed "passionate about having SFO/LAX-JFK for [their] corporate travel" and therefore dropped UA when p.s. moved, which although "cute, but limiting" still was a rather significant issue.
Therefore although yes many corporate customers don't care about the difference between JFK/EWR, what Kirby is highlighting is that UA lost those who did care when they quit JFK, and these contracts seemed to have been rather significant, which is what many of us had foreseen since the beginning when this was announced. And thus that explains channa's point:
Apr 22, 2017, 12:56 pm
#167
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Apr 22, 2017, 1:20 pm
#168
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EWR could benefit from a name change. Something like "Newark New York International Airport" would signify it serves Newark but also serves as a gateway to New York City. Like "Baltimore Washington International Airport" promotes BWI as serving Baltimore and Washington DC.
Apr 22, 2017, 1:23 pm
#169
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Apr 22, 2017, 1:25 pm
#170
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EWR could benefit from a name change. Something like "Newark New York International Airport" would signify it serves Newark but also serves as a gateway to New York City. Like "Baltimore Washington International Airport" promotes BWI as serving Baltimore and Washington DC.
Apr 22, 2017, 1:27 pm
#171
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EWR could benefit from a name change. Something like "Newark New York International Airport" would signify it serves Newark but also serves as a gateway to New York City. Like "Baltimore Washington International Airport" promotes BWI as serving Baltimore and Washington DC.
Edit: So is NNY, by a small airport in China. Perhaps they'd be willing to sell.
Apr 22, 2017, 1:41 pm
#172
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Apr 22, 2017, 2:49 pm
#173
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Codes starting with 'N' are solely reserved for Navy use in the U.S...hence why Newark is EWR, Nashville is BNA, etc. Changing the airport code isn't going to solve anything. Ironically enough, I learned that from the pre-departure information that is on the UA AVOD systems. 
With regards to the main topic of this thread (and maybe this goes in the 'UA does not need to compete at EWR' thread) - United, far and away, is doing the most advertising in Manhattan at the moment. Their advertisements are everywhere - phone booths, the electronic Wi-Fi portals, and especially the taxi-top ads. DL has largely receded - something that I noticed happening in earnest about 1-1.5 years ago - and AA has never really advertised heavily here. I think UA going back to JFK is something that frankly will have to be evaluated over a longer period of time; it's clear that as of now, it would be too costly, and I question if the current fleet capacity would allow for it (especially given the SFO<>BOS p.s. rollout, of which there has been surprisingly no announcement about yet, despite it rolling out very soon). I think UA really needs to sort out what exactly they are thinking for 752 replacements before they contemplate a JFK return. If they want to wait for the 797, it's going to be at least 10+ years before a JFK return can be contemplated. I only foresee them doing it anytime in the medium term if they bite the bullet on A321s (and if they figure out the situation with new seats - otherwise AA, with their 1-1 FC, will continue to eat their lunch).
And lastly, I think it's clear that the impact is from West Coast (and, in particular LA) originating traffic. The discussion on getting to JFK vs. EWR from any part of NYC has been beaten to death beyond recognition...and frankly, y'all can leave the argument to those of us that live here and know the geography plenty well.
With regards to the main topic of this thread (and maybe this goes in the 'UA does not need to compete at EWR' thread) - United, far and away, is doing the most advertising in Manhattan at the moment. Their advertisements are everywhere - phone booths, the electronic Wi-Fi portals, and especially the taxi-top ads. DL has largely receded - something that I noticed happening in earnest about 1-1.5 years ago - and AA has never really advertised heavily here. I think UA going back to JFK is something that frankly will have to be evaluated over a longer period of time; it's clear that as of now, it would be too costly, and I question if the current fleet capacity would allow for it (especially given the SFO<>BOS p.s. rollout, of which there has been surprisingly no announcement about yet, despite it rolling out very soon). I think UA really needs to sort out what exactly they are thinking for 752 replacements before they contemplate a JFK return. If they want to wait for the 797, it's going to be at least 10+ years before a JFK return can be contemplated. I only foresee them doing it anytime in the medium term if they bite the bullet on A321s (and if they figure out the situation with new seats - otherwise AA, with their 1-1 FC, will continue to eat their lunch).
And lastly, I think it's clear that the impact is from West Coast (and, in particular LA) originating traffic. The discussion on getting to JFK vs. EWR from any part of NYC has been beaten to death beyond recognition...and frankly, y'all can leave the argument to those of us that live here and know the geography plenty well.
Apr 22, 2017, 6:11 pm
#174
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I always thought it made sense to UA to move p.s. to EWR. There are no connecting opportunities at JFK and there are plenty at EWR. There is also no such thing as a nice NYC area airport. They are all dumps.
Apr 22, 2017, 8:20 pm
#175
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I live in Manhattan (on the UWS). Theoretically, it is easier for me to fly in and out of EWR (geographically closer) than out of JFK. However, I avoid EWR like the Plague.
IME (and mileage varies widely on this, obviously), traffic heading out to EWR is just as bad as heading out to JFK, so that is a wash. Coming back from EWR, depending on the time of day, can be much worse, so unless you time it exactly right, and hope that the flight arrives exactly as scheduled (and that, on an international flight, customs is not an unmitigated disaster), coming in from EWR can take forever and a day.
There are also fewer cabs coming in from EWR to Manhattan. What there are are (obviously) Jersey-based, and like to play games with Manhattanites. Manhattan-based car services charge more to go to/from EWR than to go to JFK (still better than those damnable Jersey cabs, though).
Then there is the EWR experience itself. JFK needs some work. EWR is a disaster. Dirty, dingy, overcrowded, poorly managed. And that is as an F/J passenger. The lounges are a joke. My husband once said to me that the BA lounge in TXL, the one everyone makes fun of for being a time capsule, is an oasis of tranquility, with decent quality teas, good coffee making machines, and constant cleaning. It never feels crowded, the staff keeps it clean and tidy, and it feels like a sweet, quaint way to say good-bye to Berlin.
Go to any J lounge in EWR, and it's like the beginning of the zombie apocalypse. Someone is always yelling at some poor staff member, finding a clean spot -- scratch that -- finding an empty spot at which to set down your things becomes an ever more stressful challenge. The minimal offerings are of questionable quality and look like they have been sitting out a bit too long. The bathrooms too often look like they were, perhaps, given a quick once-over in the morning, and then were opened to a frat house for the rest of the day (if that's the bathroom in a J lounge, what on earth do the bathrooms in the rest of EWR look like?).
And then there are the interminable lines, too often unrelieved by status or class of service. No real fault of the airline -- it's just the lack of personnel at EWR that makes the lines so unrelentingly long and the experience feel like a cross between the last flights out of Cuba when Batista fell and checking into minimum security prison.
I realize that I exaggerate (but not by a lot). Flying in and out of EWR is an unpleasant experience for most of us who live in the area and have a choice. It has made UA a non-factor in making travel plans.
IME (and mileage varies widely on this, obviously), traffic heading out to EWR is just as bad as heading out to JFK, so that is a wash. Coming back from EWR, depending on the time of day, can be much worse, so unless you time it exactly right, and hope that the flight arrives exactly as scheduled (and that, on an international flight, customs is not an unmitigated disaster), coming in from EWR can take forever and a day.
There are also fewer cabs coming in from EWR to Manhattan. What there are are (obviously) Jersey-based, and like to play games with Manhattanites. Manhattan-based car services charge more to go to/from EWR than to go to JFK (still better than those damnable Jersey cabs, though).
Then there is the EWR experience itself. JFK needs some work. EWR is a disaster. Dirty, dingy, overcrowded, poorly managed. And that is as an F/J passenger. The lounges are a joke. My husband once said to me that the BA lounge in TXL, the one everyone makes fun of for being a time capsule, is an oasis of tranquility, with decent quality teas, good coffee making machines, and constant cleaning. It never feels crowded, the staff keeps it clean and tidy, and it feels like a sweet, quaint way to say good-bye to Berlin.
Go to any J lounge in EWR, and it's like the beginning of the zombie apocalypse. Someone is always yelling at some poor staff member, finding a clean spot -- scratch that -- finding an empty spot at which to set down your things becomes an ever more stressful challenge. The minimal offerings are of questionable quality and look like they have been sitting out a bit too long. The bathrooms too often look like they were, perhaps, given a quick once-over in the morning, and then were opened to a frat house for the rest of the day (if that's the bathroom in a J lounge, what on earth do the bathrooms in the rest of EWR look like?).
And then there are the interminable lines, too often unrelieved by status or class of service. No real fault of the airline -- it's just the lack of personnel at EWR that makes the lines so unrelentingly long and the experience feel like a cross between the last flights out of Cuba when Batista fell and checking into minimum security prison.
I realize that I exaggerate (but not by a lot). Flying in and out of EWR is an unpleasant experience for most of us who live in the area and have a choice. It has made UA a non-factor in making travel plans.
Apr 22, 2017, 9:44 pm
#176
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Once you take your focus away from "I live in NY and know the quirks" and "I am not paying $2400-$3600 RT for each of my tickets, and think about the people who are paying that and don't know NYC so well, well JFK is just easier...
Apr 22, 2017, 10:10 pm
#177
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,383
Amtrak has a lot of problems unfortunately, including capacity issues on the Northeast Corridor, aging infrastructure, and the inconvenience for the majority of its passengers by adding a stop at EWR. Not to mention the Airtrain is at the end of its useful life as well. Hopefully the PANYNJ gets its act together and replaces the Airtrain with a new one that extends to Newark Penn Station.
http://corpinfo.panynj.gov/files/upl...26_HZ1oF7A.pdf
still in the planning stage, projected cost 1.7B, construction estimated 2020-2026....
(page 38)
but it still wont go directly to the terminals, will connect with airtrain... sigh
airtrain will be repaired, extend life to 2030 (page 15)
Last edited by paperwastage; Apr 22, 2017 at 10:21 pm
Apr 22, 2017, 10:16 pm
#178
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It's mildly humorous that we're told people who live in Manhattan and the rest of NYC apparently don't matter when it comes to the p.s. debate .... as if all airlines fly these lie flats for the sole amusement of those from the west coast
DL is doing a heckuva job catering to all these full fare J customers from the west coast at a 4% margin
DL is doing a heckuva job catering to all these full fare J customers from the west coast at a 4% margin
Apr 22, 2017, 10:18 pm
#179
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Apr 22, 2017, 11:02 pm
#180
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It's mildly humorous that we're told people who live in Manhattan and the rest of NYC apparently don't matter when it comes to the p.s. debate .... as if all airlines fly these lie flats for the sole amusement of those from the west coast
DL is doing a heckuva job catering to all these full fare J customers from the west coast at a 4% margin
DL is doing a heckuva job catering to all these full fare J customers from the west coast at a 4% margin
In the first quarter of 2017, DL's pre-tax profit margin was 9.26% (excluding special items) while UA's first quarter pre-tax profit margin was 2.3% (also excl special items). That's a huge difference.
In 2016, DL's pre-tax profit margin was 15.4% (again, excl special items) while UA's pre-tax profit margin was 12.2% (again, excl special items).
Looks like UA's margin has been down since the ps flights were moved, and UA's margins have been lower than DL's margin for quite some time now. Problem is, the NYC Newark fans aren't paying enough to cover for all of Smisek's missteps.
Moving the ps flights to EWR and closing JFK may have saved the company some nickels in costs but may have also cost the company some dollars in lost revenue (think of the "network" that was impacted when UA could no longer be found at JFK).