kavok

The problem with this is that the bid value is not the lone determinant on whether a customer will accept a VDB. The new flights they will be assigned to and potential overnight accommodation come into play as well.

For example, a customer may initially be willing to accept a VDB for $400, until they find out the next available flight isn't until the following afternoon. i.e. They would take a $400 credit if they arrive at their destination 4 hours late, but want more if the delay is 24 hours plus. Or some other passenger may be adverse to a flight route that has a short connection or connects in a disliked airport.

The point is, dollar amount is not the sole factor in whether a pax will accept a VDB.... which is why the gate agent still needs to be part of the process.

STS-134

You can easily add contingencies to the app. I bid $X if I can get on flight Y. A pax could submit several bids, up to a "no contingencies" bid. So I might bid $200 if I can get on a flight that leaves 2 hours later, $1000 for a flight that leaves the next morning, up to a completely non contingent offer of either $5000 cash or a R/T F ticket to Asia.

There should be no IDBs, only VDBs. Everyone has a price at which he or she would get off the plane. A few probably wouldn't get off for anything less than $1000000. That's fine, let them bid $1000000. The airline will pick someone else who bids lower.

tom911

And in those cases where employees are "must rides", and there are still no volunteers, just cancel the flights they were scheduled to work and have everyone deal with the repercussions. I fully expect DOT to address "must ride" employee travel and not have passengers suffer to accommodate that class of passenger.

kavok

I agree in theory this would be great, but in practice I am guessing 70+% of passengers would need the gate agents help in developing an alternative flight plan. You and I and most of the other FT posters would have no trouble coming up with a reasonable alternate flight plan to meet our needs, but we are in the minority of the general flying public.

And if you limit your bidding to only those who can develop a reasonable alternate flight plan, you have significantly limited the ability to find enough volunteers at a reasonable price. This why the GA must still be part of the process.

TimeWarp

I have to agree, there are still folks who do not have a smart phone (my guess would be seniors) or are not app savvy enough.

The current rules need some tweeking:

VDB would be a flat 6x of the base fare paid in cash or check (redeemable in terminal). All other aspects would remain the same.

IDB would be a flat 4x of the base fare paid in cash or check (redeemable in the terminal). All other aspects would remain the same.

Each airline would still be able to use their own proprietary algorithm to select the IDB's.

If the selected IDB's don't comply, flight is cancelled and no compensation is provided.

Class downgrades would be paid at 2x base fare between cabin classes at time of purchase, paid in cash or check (redeemable in terminal).

This would be for all domestic flights industry wide. Uniform rules so all airlines and passengers are on the same page. Rules will be posted at all ticket counters and gates.

Quick, simple with speed and efficiency to get the flight out asap.


I have only flown 4 round trips in the last 1.5 years so it might not be the best idea, but it's my 2 cents in voucher form!

Jabarie MacQuarrie

Just raise the VDB offer until someone accepts. No need for anything complicated.

George Purcell

"IDBs should be rare. In the event an IDB must occur the passenger shall be given 4xFull Fare Y for the segment or segments denied boarding in cash and placed on the next departing flight on the carrier on a must fly basis in an upgraded class of service (if the equipment has multiple classes). In the event the next departing flight is 12 or more hours later and a flight on an alternate carrier exists the passenger shall be placed on the alternate carrier flight if they desire."

kavok

Also, for those suggesting removing all cap limits, or having a cap limit so high (i.e. $1 million) that it essentially serves in practice as no cap, here is something to keep in mind:

At some point somewhere, eventually there would be a IDB situation where the cost became say $100k plus. Obviously this would be very rare, but sooner or later some flight somewhere would result in outrageous amount that would be owed.

At that point, the airlines could then sue that the law is requiring unjust compensation that far exceeds any damages caused, and they would probably win. This could result in the whole law being thrown out the window.

To provide an analogy, if I sign a contract to paint someones house but fail to do so, then I am in violation of the contract and can be sued. However, the person who sues me can only sue for an amount that is justifiable for the damages incurred, not a random $1 billion dollars because they feel like it.

For that reason, I think a good cap would be in the $5 to $10k range.. Significant enough that it would rarely get that high, but even if it did, it would not create an undue financial burden and compensation being made due by the airline.

Kevin AA

How is that in any way "easy"? That is more complicated than the current setup.

STS-134

I think you're confused. A cap is the maximum amount they'd be allowed to pay, and I don't think such a thing exists, even now. What you're talking about is establishing a floor, or minimum amount of IDB compensation. I think a good place to start is 2-4x the maximum fare sold on that flight. Don't tie it to a specific dollar amount because there's this thing called inflation. In any case, this makes IDB much more expensive than finding volunteers for VDB, which makes IDB effectively a thing of the past.

kavok

Good correction, my bad. You are correct in that I should have stated floor. A floor of 5k to 10k that must be provided to IDBs... which in a practical sense would become the new upper limit for what airlines would offer to a VDB.

kavok

It is difficult to explain at first, but easy implement in practice. It provides the GA a sorted list of pax who would accept a VDB if the price is right, and an approximate price they would accept for that VDB given a reasonable revised flight booking with the lowest offer at the top of the list.

The improvement over the existing for the airline is that it helps keep down VDB. The current system encourages pax to wait it out to see how much they can get. For example. under the current system the GA makes an announcement that says "we need 4 volunteers for VDB, and are offering $200 to do it." As a solo pax, I walk up close to the GA, and look around to see if anyone else is biting on that offer. After a few minutes and no takers, the offer gets upped to $400, than $800. Finally at $800 some people start walking towards the GA. Quickly I jump in line and take the GA offer for $800. Now truth be told, I would have taken the $200 offer. But since I could play the game and wait it out for more $$, I did. This happens all the time.

The new system I described avoids that, as you can easily target the lowest bidders at close to their low bid price.

raehl311

The actual answer is:

The current IDB system is EXCELLENT. It allows airlines to inconvenience the least number of passengers possible given the finicky nature of safe air travel.

There is no reason to change it because of one criminal getting hurt when he forced law enforcement to use force against him.


And if you think there is, especially as the frequent traveler you are:


- Do you want entire flights canceled because airlines can't move crew around? Entire series of flights operated by an aircraft delayed throughout the day?
- Do you want flights delayed because passengers think they can simply refuse to leave a plane when asked and there will never be forced used? Even if that passenger is a threat, like drunk, or sitting next to you and touching you inappropriately, or is so large they can't fit in one seat? Or would you rather fly with those people than have them forcibly removed from your plane?
- Do you want airlines to no longer have the option to overbook, and because they are forced to fly your seat empty when you noshow, require you to buy a new ticket for any flight you miss?


Seriously... we've got a good system that has worked pretty well for years, until this ONE GUY decided he was more important than everyone else, and when it finally came to having to force him off the plane because he wouldn't take a simple request to leave, he got hurt. HIS fault. No reason to make everyone else pay for it.

raehl311

There is. The current cap for domestic travel is $1,350, for delays longer than, I believe, 4 hours. The rate is 4x one-way airfare paid (not including taxes, of course.)

muishkin

Looking at the IDB/VDB ratios, I would say United's system is pretty bad compared to Delta's. To call it excellent is tolerating mediocrity.

The only "criminal" here is United Airlines. They were being criminally cheap that is.



I don't see any direct cause and effect here. Improving the IDB process i.e. being able to find four volunteers quickly would have enabled those deadheading crew to reach SDF without a 2 hour delay and no current mess.

Completely irrelevant. The refusal of transport would still apply in those scenarios. None of which has anything to do with what happened on this past Sunday or the IDB process.

I don't see how having a process to reduce the IDB/VDB ratio would make the overbooking process a dinosaur. As Ed Bastian of Delta said today: "overbooking is fine, it's all about how you manage an overbooking situation."