IADFlyer123

This will be so much fun if somehow you try and buy a PE ticket on LH for N class. And so much confusion!!!!!

saFlyTalk

I would suspect the above poster is correct. In addition, of the few remaining N fares that may exist, I suppose United could just apply a filter, select these fares, and change the fare class to G (which is no more restrictive than the original fare class). Flyer losing nothing, and it would cleanly seperate budget economy N fates from others standard economy tickets.

BBSHOPSINGER

I agree with others that if this happens, most businesses will force fliers into the lowest fares, and I will no longer have incentive to be loyal to United. Why try to differentiate your airline from the "budget" carriers that we've all grown to hate, and then turn around and become one?

mduell

Some will choose them, just as they choose Spirit/Frontier today, some won't.

Because, continent after continent, they're eating the legacies for breakfast. So the legacies are trying to offer some of the budget carrier limitations at the budget carrier prices.

johnden

The only way this makes economic sense is if UA adds the "basic" restrictions to existing lowest-cost fares. Then elites, business travelers and some frequent flyers will choose a higher fare. This is more or less what DL did, at least from what others have inferred from their financial reports.

If they are creating a lower fare than is currently offered, could be an interesting way to compete with LCCs. Personally I don't believe they would do this as the majority of travelers book the lowest fare regardless of the details, so this would only weaken revenue.

I haven't read any reports that this works domestically without spending a ton of money to improve operations, but have seen evidence of the opposite. Price is king, at least for domestic flights which average no more than a few hours per leg. For my own amusement I poll family and friends and ask them how much more they would be willing to pay for an extra inch of legroom, a stroopwaffel, a 2-3% better chance at getting to your destination, etc. Answers are usually $5-10 USD. Try it yourself and you may be surprised. Industry analytics are even worse, often showing people are willing to travel an extra few hours or days to save only a few dollars.

mduell

They need to lower those bottom fares to match the ULCC fares. Currently they do in some markets (while still providing the same product/flexibility as other discount fares) and don't in others. I think these basic fares will see them do it in most ULCC competed markets.

BBSHOPSINGER

I'm not sure of this. Most of the people I know absolutely refuse to fly on the budget airlines because by the time you finish paying for the extra fees, they end up costing more than the mainline airlines. If there are some loyalty benefits to flying a mainline airline that can be kept for business flyers, that's great. But if those benefits go away because businesses will force us to purchase the fares that don't include any loyalty benefits, why be loyal at all?

xliioper

And did you happen to look at the fare rules for those DL E fares? 3 week advance, roundtrip purchase required with a Saturday night stay. How many business flyers do you think book these kind of trips? I'm going to say fairly few. I think it's pretty clear that these are aimed at leisure flyers and are not meant to ensnare the typical business flyer (who often buys less than 3 weeks out and generally books one-way's or a mid-week RT that does not have a Saturday night stay).

fly18725

If business travelers are booking these type of trips, they are not the type of business travelers a network airline wants to focus on.

lonelycrowd

Does anyone know whether *G benefits will still apply to Basic Economy? I think *A contractually requires lounge access and at least one checked bag on all fares. My guess is that UA could remove Premier Access at its discretion as that's not a formal alliance benefit, though they would have to relabel all counters and lanes with *G signage accordingly.

If the only drawback to Basic Economy is not being able to select a seat until check in, it won't be that much of a drawback - there's no complimentary E+ or upgrades for *G customers anyway.

emcampbe

I know lots of people who will fly the ULCCs, Allegiant, Frontier, etc. Forget about mileage earning, benefits etc., just the amount (read: lack of) legroom, extra charges all over the place are enough to prevent me.

Here in CVG, the ULCCs are extermely popular, apparently. Ever since Frontier started with a single daily to DEN, and Allegiant started with I think at first, a couple/week to S. Florida, these carriers have expanded - by multiple destinations and frequency to these destinations. I believe F9 does double-daily to DEN on Airbus - so that's more seats then UA flies to DEN (UA typically does 2 x CR7, though they are apparently upgauging 1 to 319 in the fall). I wish UA would expand here with a flight to the west coast (SFO) - would be great to get additional TPAC conections (I digress...know that's for another thread).

I happened to travel out on an early Sat. flight on UA in early June. That's not my usual departure time, but the check-in area and security area were busier then I've ever seen. The AA, UA, US(/AC) counters were not crazy busy, but when I looked down the terminal toward the LCC check in area, it was absolutely packed. Yes, I know its probably nostly vacationers going to sun destinations. But they are getting a lot of people flying them, invariably pulling them in with the low airfare, but many probably don't realize when all is said and done, they are paying more...with checked bag fees, fees for a seat, have to buy a snack or even soda in flight. I did an intra-EU flight a few years ago, London to MAD. Considered EasyJet, Ryanair, etc., but when I put all the costs in, inconvience of potentially traveling for LGW/Stanstead vs. LHR, bag fees, etc, they weren't worth it, either. Legacies have higher costs upfront for sure for travelers, but in the end, most are going to pay the same or less, with a generally better (though by no means perfect) experience, with more flexibility.

For the loyalty question, the corporates are going to have to decide what's more important - clearly, travelers will be happier if they can get better benefits by flying their preferred carrier on an eligible fare - more legroom, potential upgrades. Many companies, particularly, I'm guessing, those where travel is a major aspect of their business (i.e. consulting, etc.), understand this. Some won't. But in the end, when it comes down to it, corporates are most likely going to save with a fare that isn't so restrictive. Actually, now that I think of it, kind of analogous to the legacy vs. ULCC cost differences - it will cost more upfront for the non-basic fares, but will likely cost them more in the long run. A couple of tickets that need changes. Bag fees (if forcing a carrier that the traveler doesn't have status with). Flexibility in IRROPS.

I was just kind of looking up the fare differential on a random date. Wasn't paying attention to much of the rules. The last company I worked for, I didn't travel, but I did learn a bit about their travel policy. I'm not sure how much of this was set in stone and built into the travel portal rules vs. needed permission for an exception at non-exec level vs. wasn't verified at the time but reimbursement would be tricky if violated, but know travelers were supposed to book at least 2 weeks in advance (unless travel came up last minute), and had to book restrictive fares when they were cheaper. This was the corporate of a retailer - I would say there weren't a ton of folks traveling in most areas, and probably fewer changes made, then say, at the consulting firms. So there are definitely those kinds of companies.

If like DL, no upgrades, no E+ and no changes. Other benefits - bags, premier access, lounge access, etc. should stay. And yes, a lot of these are required by *A. However, let's not forget LH does sell intra-EU fares which allows no checked baggage, even for elites, IIRC, so there probably is a way to do this if they want. Let's not forget, UA also has a waiver to disallow lounge access for its own elites when traveling domestically. Whether it will happen or not, I don't know.

As for Premier Access vs. *G, IIRC, most Premier Access lanes already notate *G since they get those benefits already. Seat selection is not the only drawback - let's not forget there are no changes, which is a non-starter for me.

windhund

There are many European carriers that do not offer elite status or alliance benefits on their lowest fares, which are similar to the very restrictive fares that are being discussed here. LH's light fare, for example, does not include any checked bags, even if you are *G. And there's precedence for this elsewhere too. I believe BA sells certain fares that do not include free checked bags, even for the OneWorld equivalent of *G.

Kacee

You can assume there won't be any of the *A benefits that are specifically excluded from the fare, including particularly a free bag.

Exactly.

Wooglin

While I applaud the creative thinking on UA to get more revenue for pax who want this... I fear for how this will be implemented when it comes to business travel agencies.

I have to book all work travel via Egencia and Egencia only gives the lowest fare option for each flight/carrier.

If UA flights get priced into this new fare bucket by default, I won't have an option to pick a higher non-Budget Economy fare.

emcampbe

Discussed upthread, a couple of times.

Again, my opinion is that these fares don't even benefit corporate travelers, particularly those that end up making changes on occasion. It's one thing to need to pay a fee for changes...in fact, its often cheaper to make two or three changes then buy a ticket that doesn't incur a fee for this. But without allowing any changes whatsoever, these become throwaway, and will likely cost coporates more. Smart companies will probably filter out these fares - but I'd guess not all will. Its going to be up to each company, as it is now with other items like who will allow non-stops over connections for a premium, etc.