Fare Class Questions
Feb 3, 2016, 6:02 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2006
Programs: UA Platinum, Marriott Platinum Premier
Posts: 83
Fare Class Questions
Hopefully someone can help me with fare classes. I'm searching EWR-LHR round trip in June. I first put in flexible dates for 5 days and June 25-June 30 came up $995 round trip. When I went to pick those dates, there was a flight on June 25 at 10 PM that was $402 OW in a K fare but the return flights on the 30th were all over $1600. So I cancelled out of the search. I went back in and searched picked those dates as opposed to flexible dates. Now the same 10 PM flight shows up $667 one way in a T bucket as the lowest, yet in advanced search, 9 seats in the lower K bucket are showing as available but I can't select them. Why wouldn't I be able to select a K fare if they are showing as available?
I tried an advanced thread search but couldn't find an answer. I apologize if this has been addressed elsewhere. I'm a little new to expert mode and couldn't understand why certain prices were showing up and then all of a sudden not available.
Thanks for the help
I tried an advanced thread search but couldn't find an answer. I apologize if this has been addressed elsewhere. I'm a little new to expert mode and couldn't understand why certain prices were showing up and then all of a sudden not available.
Thanks for the help
Feb 3, 2016, 6:27 pm
#2
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Houston
Programs: UA Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 12,693
The answer can be found in one of the considerations you acknowledged when you checked the box that lets you see fare buckets:
The presence of a particular fare class does not mean that there is a fare associated with it. For example, we may offer availability in a discounted fare class, but that does not necessarily mean we have published a fare that corresponds to it.
(emphasis in original)
The presence of a particular fare class does not mean that there is a fare associated with it. For example, we may offer availability in a discounted fare class, but that does not necessarily mean we have published a fare that corresponds to it.
(emphasis in original)
Feb 3, 2016, 6:32 pm
#3
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: LHR (sometimes CLE, SFO, BOS, LAX, SEA)
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 5,893
There are 2 things going on here. One is easy to understand. The other is infuriating.
(1) Understanding how fares work
In order to buy a ticket, you need to have a fare cover that ticket. In order to get a fare, you need availability. In order to get availability, you need city pairs and dates.
OK so your city pairs are
6/25 EWR-LHR
6/30 LHR-EWR
The cheapest fares for this date is KHNC29S. Here's an Expertflyer fare search that shows most fares in this market:
(btw, notice that there is not a T fare filed -- we'll get to that later)
That fare has the following traits - 90 day advance purchase, $310 round trip before taxes and fuel surcharges, requires a Saturday night minimum stay.
Specifically the min stay rules for the fare say:
(You can see this by clicking 'fare rules' just before booking a K fare ticket or by using matrix.itasoftware.com or ExpertFlyer to view this fare's rules.)
If you do a search for an EWR-LHR round trip from June 25 to June 30, you will see that both
(1) the day flight EWR-LHR which departs Saturday morning and arrives Saturday night
and also
(2) the night flight EWR-LHR which departs Saturday night and arrives Sunday morning
both have K inventory. However, the only published K fare requires you to depart no sooner than the first Sunday after arrival on your turnaround point - i.e. July 3, since you arrive on Sunday 26 June.
One possible expensive journey you can book on 6/25 EWR-LHR (redeye) returning 6/30 LHR-EWR fares out with fare basis SHW26NCE, which says
By way of contrast the cheap journey on 6/25 EWR-LHR (day flight) returning 6/30 LHR-EWR fares out with fare basis KHNC29S which, again, says
I hope it's clear why — if your return portion is going to be midweek — an outbound flight that departs Saturday and arrives Saturday night is eligible for the cheaper K fare; while at the same time an outbound flight that departs Saturday and arrives Sunday is not eligible for the cheaper K fare but is eligible for the more expensive S fare.
Now, what about that "T" you were seeing which was cheaper than the "S" I quote above? Here things get interesting.
You'll notice that the one-way fare price shown for the morning flight on June 25 is a $400 K fare whereas the one-way fare price shown for the evening flight on June 25 is a $600 T fare. Where does that T fare and price come from? Why aren't you automatically getting the next cheapest fare without a min stay requirement, an S fare? Here is the other thing to understand (which is a little infuriating).
(2) United shows prices and fare classes per sector -- but mucks around with them depending on which return you choose.
If you select the cheapest economy $600 T fare EWR-LHR , on the next screen you will see that you can book a return portion of either a $1400 S fare LHR-EWR or a $1100 T fare LHR-DUB-EWR.
Suppose you pick the $1400 S fare LHR-EWR. Look *very closely* at the next screen and you'll see that you now have an S fare EWR-LHR and an S fare LHR-EWR. After you picked the T fare on EWR-LHR, based on the return you chose, UA upped your fare class on the outbound!! Why? Because the cheapest fare that can cover your journey on an EWR-LHR round trip is that S fare.
But if instead you pick the $1100 T fare LHR-DUB-EWR, on the next screen you'll see that you now have a T fare EWR-LHR (just like you picked originally) and you also have a T fare LHR-DUB-EWR. Click "Fare rules" and you'll see that what you are being sold is a round trip on the UA EWR-DUB fare basis TJ40NCE with a stopover in LHR.
In other words, it is so expensive to fly to LHR without a Saturday night stay that United actually knows to offer to fly you to Dublin with a stopover in London (and a very short amount of time at the fare's "destination" in Dublin!).
I find this stuff infuriating because the per-segment cost United shows you as you pick partial round trips is not at all transparent and the fares it's choosing are really hard to follow. There can be wonky situations with a multicity trip where you'll see that a particular sector costs "$0" (because it is being treated as a free stopover) but later flight choices raise the price much more than the individual flight. Um, hard to describe but it is very difficult to follow.
(1) Understanding how fares work
In order to buy a ticket, you need to have a fare cover that ticket. In order to get a fare, you need availability. In order to get availability, you need city pairs and dates.
OK so your city pairs are
6/25 EWR-LHR
6/30 LHR-EWR
The cheapest fares for this date is KHNC29S. Here's an Expertflyer fare search that shows most fares in this market:
(btw, notice that there is not a T fare filed -- we'll get to that later)
That fare has the following traits - 90 day advance purchase, $310 round trip before taxes and fuel surcharges, requires a Saturday night minimum stay.
Specifically the min stay rules for the fare say:
TRAVEL FROM LAST STOPOVER MUST COMMENCE NO EARLIER
THAN THE FIRST SUN AFTER ARRIVAL AT THE TURNAROUND.
THAN THE FIRST SUN AFTER ARRIVAL AT THE TURNAROUND.
If you do a search for an EWR-LHR round trip from June 25 to June 30, you will see that both
(1) the day flight EWR-LHR which departs Saturday morning and arrives Saturday night
and also
(2) the night flight EWR-LHR which departs Saturday night and arrives Sunday morning
both have K inventory. However, the only published K fare requires you to depart no sooner than the first Sunday after arrival on your turnaround point - i.e. July 3, since you arrive on Sunday 26 June.
One possible expensive journey you can book on 6/25 EWR-LHR (redeye) returning 6/30 LHR-EWR fares out with fare basis SHW26NCE, which says
MIN STAY: TRAVEL FROM INBOUND TRANSATLANTIC SECTOR MUST COMMENCE NO EARLIER THAN THE FIRST SUN AFTER DEPARTURE OF THE OUTBOUND TRANSATLANTIC SECTOR.
MIN STAY: TRAVEL FROM LAST STOPOVER MUST COMMENCE NO EARLIER THAN THE FIRST SUN AFTER ARRIVAL AT TURNAROUND.
Now, what about that "T" you were seeing which was cheaper than the "S" I quote above? Here things get interesting.
You'll notice that the one-way fare price shown for the morning flight on June 25 is a $400 K fare whereas the one-way fare price shown for the evening flight on June 25 is a $600 T fare. Where does that T fare and price come from? Why aren't you automatically getting the next cheapest fare without a min stay requirement, an S fare? Here is the other thing to understand (which is a little infuriating).
(2) United shows prices and fare classes per sector -- but mucks around with them depending on which return you choose.
If you select the cheapest economy $600 T fare EWR-LHR , on the next screen you will see that you can book a return portion of either a $1400 S fare LHR-EWR or a $1100 T fare LHR-DUB-EWR.
Suppose you pick the $1400 S fare LHR-EWR. Look *very closely* at the next screen and you'll see that you now have an S fare EWR-LHR and an S fare LHR-EWR. After you picked the T fare on EWR-LHR, based on the return you chose, UA upped your fare class on the outbound!! Why? Because the cheapest fare that can cover your journey on an EWR-LHR round trip is that S fare.
But if instead you pick the $1100 T fare LHR-DUB-EWR, on the next screen you'll see that you now have a T fare EWR-LHR (just like you picked originally) and you also have a T fare LHR-DUB-EWR. Click "Fare rules" and you'll see that what you are being sold is a round trip on the UA EWR-DUB fare basis TJ40NCE with a stopover in LHR.
In other words, it is so expensive to fly to LHR without a Saturday night stay that United actually knows to offer to fly you to Dublin with a stopover in London (and a very short amount of time at the fare's "destination" in Dublin!).
I find this stuff infuriating because the per-segment cost United shows you as you pick partial round trips is not at all transparent and the fares it's choosing are really hard to follow. There can be wonky situations with a multicity trip where you'll see that a particular sector costs "$0" (because it is being treated as a free stopover) but later flight choices raise the price much more than the individual flight. Um, hard to describe but it is very difficult to follow.
Last edited by mherdeg; Feb 3, 2016 at 6:51 pm
Feb 3, 2016, 6:36 pm
#4
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Houston
Programs: UA Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 12,693
One of the many reasons nobody should be using UA.sux's awful flight search. Third parties (ITA software, google flights, hipmunk) do it so much better.
Commencing on the first Sunday after arrival would be a Saturday night stay requirement, not Sunday night stay.
That fare has the following traits - 90 day advance purchase, $310 round trip before taxes and fuel surcharges, requires a Sunday night minimum stay.
Specifically the min stay rules for the fare say:
Specifically the min stay rules for the fare say:
TRAVEL FROM LAST STOPOVER MUST COMMENCE NO EARLIER
THAN THE FIRST SUN AFTER ARRIVAL AT THE TURNAROUND.
THAN THE FIRST SUN AFTER ARRIVAL AT THE TURNAROUND.
Feb 3, 2016, 6:43 pm
#5
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: LHR (sometimes CLE, SFO, BOS, LAX, SEA)
Programs: UA 1K
Posts: 5,893
I was confused because of the Expertflyer output that says "SU". It seems like ExpertFlyer's output says "SU" regardless of whether the fare is "you must depart no earlier than the first Sunday after tatl departure" and "you must depart no earlier than the first Sunday after tatl arrival"!
Feb 3, 2016, 6:46 pm
#6
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, UA Gold, WN, Global Entry; +others wherever miles/points are found
Posts: 14,419
I find this stuff infuriating because the per-segment cost United shows you as you pick partial round trips is not at all transparent and the fares it's choosing are really hard to follow. There can be wonky situations with a multicity trip where you'll see that a particular sector costs "$0" (because it is being treated as a free stopover) but later flight choices raise the price much more than the individual flight. Um, hard to describe but it is very difficult to follow.
In simple cases like this it seems like the UA website "segment price" tracks closely to half the total fare component when it is 1/2 sectors. In fairness to UA, what should the site list as the sector price? It's already going above and beyond by finding you an EWR-DUB routing with stopover.
But then there's completely insane stuff like this. How it apportions that through fare I will never understand.
Feb 3, 2016, 6:57 pm
#7
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Houston
Programs: UA Plat, Marriott Gold
Posts: 12,693
It should be listing the minimum price of the complete trip including that sector, not per-segment prices.
If I was snarky I'd say the PQD+taxes for that sector (since UA has apparently no ability to calculate those in advance), but since those don't actually break down by fare it wouldn't be any more meaningful.
If I was snarky I'd say the PQD+taxes for that sector (since UA has apparently no ability to calculate those in advance), but since those don't actually break down by fare it wouldn't be any more meaningful.
Feb 3, 2016, 7:17 pm
#8
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2006
Programs: UA Platinum, Marriott Platinum Premier
Posts: 83
There are 2 things going on here. One is easy to understand. The other is infuriating.
(1) Understanding how fares work
In order to buy a ticket, you need to have a fare cover that ticket. In order to get a fare, you need availability. In order to get availability, you need city pairs and dates.
OK so your city pairs are
6/25 EWR-LHR
6/30 LHR-EWR
The cheapest fares for this date is KHNC29S. Here's an Expertflyer fare search that shows most fares in this market:
(btw, notice that there is not a T fare filed -- we'll get to that later)
That fare has the following traits - 90 day advance purchase, $310 round trip before taxes and fuel surcharges, requires a Saturday night minimum stay.
Specifically the min stay rules for the fare say:
(You can see this by clicking 'fare rules' just before booking a K fare ticket or by using matrix.itasoftware.com or ExpertFlyer to view this fare's rules.)
If you do a search for an EWR-LHR round trip from June 25 to June 30, you will see that both
(1) the day flight EWR-LHR which departs Saturday morning and arrives Saturday night
and also
(2) the night flight EWR-LHR which departs Saturday night and arrives Sunday morning
both have K inventory. However, the only published K fare requires you to depart no sooner than the first Sunday after arrival on your turnaround point - i.e. July 3, since you arrive on Sunday 26 June.
One possible expensive journey you can book on 6/25 EWR-LHR (redeye) returning 6/30 LHR-EWR fares out with fare basis SHW26NCE, which says
By way of contrast the cheap journey on 6/25 EWR-LHR (day flight) returning 6/30 LHR-EWR fares out with fare basis KHNC29S which, again, says
I hope it's clear why — if your return portion is going to be midweek — an outbound flight that departs Saturday and arrives Saturday night is eligible for the cheaper K fare; while at the same time an outbound flight that departs Saturday and arrives Sunday is not eligible for the cheaper K fare but is eligible for the more expensive S fare.
Now, what about that "T" you were seeing which was cheaper than the "S" I quote above? Here things get interesting.
You'll notice that the one-way fare price shown for the morning flight on June 25 is a $400 K fare whereas the one-way fare price shown for the evening flight on June 25 is a $600 T fare. Where does that T fare and price come from? Why aren't you automatically getting the next cheapest fare without a min stay requirement, an S fare? Here is the other thing to understand (which is a little infuriating).
(2) United shows prices and fare classes per sector -- but mucks around with them depending on which return you choose.
If you select the cheapest economy $600 T fare EWR-LHR , on the next screen you will see that you can book a return portion of either a $1400 S fare LHR-EWR or a $1100 T fare LHR-DUB-EWR.
Suppose you pick the $1400 S fare LHR-EWR. Look *very closely* at the next screen and you'll see that you now have an S fare EWR-LHR and an S fare LHR-EWR. After you picked the T fare on EWR-LHR, based on the return you chose, UA upped your fare class on the outbound!! Why? Because the cheapest fare that can cover your journey on an EWR-LHR round trip is that S fare.
But if instead you pick the $1100 T fare LHR-DUB-EWR, on the next screen you'll see that you now have a T fare EWR-LHR (just like you picked originally) and you also have a T fare LHR-DUB-EWR. Click "Fare rules" and you'll see that what you are being sold is a round trip on the UA EWR-DUB fare basis TJ40NCE with a stopover in LHR.
In other words, it is so expensive to fly to LHR without a Saturday night stay that United actually knows to offer to fly you to Dublin with a stopover in London (and a very short amount of time at the fare's "destination" in Dublin!).
I find this stuff infuriating because the per-segment cost United shows you as you pick partial round trips is not at all transparent and the fares it's choosing are really hard to follow. There can be wonky situations with a multicity trip where you'll see that a particular sector costs "$0" (because it is being treated as a free stopover) but later flight choices raise the price much more than the individual flight. Um, hard to describe but it is very difficult to follow.
(1) Understanding how fares work
In order to buy a ticket, you need to have a fare cover that ticket. In order to get a fare, you need availability. In order to get availability, you need city pairs and dates.
OK so your city pairs are
6/25 EWR-LHR
6/30 LHR-EWR
The cheapest fares for this date is KHNC29S. Here's an Expertflyer fare search that shows most fares in this market:
(btw, notice that there is not a T fare filed -- we'll get to that later)
That fare has the following traits - 90 day advance purchase, $310 round trip before taxes and fuel surcharges, requires a Saturday night minimum stay.
Specifically the min stay rules for the fare say:
(You can see this by clicking 'fare rules' just before booking a K fare ticket or by using matrix.itasoftware.com or ExpertFlyer to view this fare's rules.)
If you do a search for an EWR-LHR round trip from June 25 to June 30, you will see that both
(1) the day flight EWR-LHR which departs Saturday morning and arrives Saturday night
and also
(2) the night flight EWR-LHR which departs Saturday night and arrives Sunday morning
both have K inventory. However, the only published K fare requires you to depart no sooner than the first Sunday after arrival on your turnaround point - i.e. July 3, since you arrive on Sunday 26 June.
One possible expensive journey you can book on 6/25 EWR-LHR (redeye) returning 6/30 LHR-EWR fares out with fare basis SHW26NCE, which says
By way of contrast the cheap journey on 6/25 EWR-LHR (day flight) returning 6/30 LHR-EWR fares out with fare basis KHNC29S which, again, says
I hope it's clear why — if your return portion is going to be midweek — an outbound flight that departs Saturday and arrives Saturday night is eligible for the cheaper K fare; while at the same time an outbound flight that departs Saturday and arrives Sunday is not eligible for the cheaper K fare but is eligible for the more expensive S fare.
Now, what about that "T" you were seeing which was cheaper than the "S" I quote above? Here things get interesting.
You'll notice that the one-way fare price shown for the morning flight on June 25 is a $400 K fare whereas the one-way fare price shown for the evening flight on June 25 is a $600 T fare. Where does that T fare and price come from? Why aren't you automatically getting the next cheapest fare without a min stay requirement, an S fare? Here is the other thing to understand (which is a little infuriating).
(2) United shows prices and fare classes per sector -- but mucks around with them depending on which return you choose.
If you select the cheapest economy $600 T fare EWR-LHR , on the next screen you will see that you can book a return portion of either a $1400 S fare LHR-EWR or a $1100 T fare LHR-DUB-EWR.
Suppose you pick the $1400 S fare LHR-EWR. Look *very closely* at the next screen and you'll see that you now have an S fare EWR-LHR and an S fare LHR-EWR. After you picked the T fare on EWR-LHR, based on the return you chose, UA upped your fare class on the outbound!! Why? Because the cheapest fare that can cover your journey on an EWR-LHR round trip is that S fare.
But if instead you pick the $1100 T fare LHR-DUB-EWR, on the next screen you'll see that you now have a T fare EWR-LHR (just like you picked originally) and you also have a T fare LHR-DUB-EWR. Click "Fare rules" and you'll see that what you are being sold is a round trip on the UA EWR-DUB fare basis TJ40NCE with a stopover in LHR.
In other words, it is so expensive to fly to LHR without a Saturday night stay that United actually knows to offer to fly you to Dublin with a stopover in London (and a very short amount of time at the fare's "destination" in Dublin!).
I find this stuff infuriating because the per-segment cost United shows you as you pick partial round trips is not at all transparent and the fares it's choosing are really hard to follow. There can be wonky situations with a multicity trip where you'll see that a particular sector costs "$0" (because it is being treated as a free stopover) but later flight choices raise the price much more than the individual flight. Um, hard to describe but it is very difficult to follow.