Smisek interview in "Buying Business Travel" article
Jul 21, 2015, 1:34 am
#182
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: where lions are led by donkeys...
Programs: Lifetime Gold, Global Entry, Hertz PC, and my wallet
Posts: 20,344
The underlying trend with United just appears that they don't have a clue what to do with the airline. They certainly don't listen to their customers, and I am not talking about just FTers, but if you listen to a lot of people in line, on the plane, after the flight, then the product in its entirety just doesn't work well on the whole. Their marketing is appalling, not appealing, and I cannot think of one example of where I think "yup, United is the one for me" or "that's what makes me loyal to you". They just don't seem to know what they have to do to attract customers other than keeping them captive as they have the "routes". Their mantra seems to be "well we know we are bad, but the others are worse." So that's alright then is it?
Jul 21, 2015, 2:02 am
#183
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 57,603
Given their judgment in replacing relatively comfortable Y seats with the horrid slimlines, and going 10 abreast on the 777, I'm not at all optimistic that they will select a competitive and customer friendly new BF seat.
Jul 21, 2015, 2:25 am
#184
Join Date: Sep 2009
Programs: UA GS>1K>Nothing; DL DM 2MM; AS 75K>Nothing>MVP
Posts: 9,341
That's not necessarily true -- a larger J cabin (vs. J and F) is often preferable precisely because it accords far greater flexibility in revenue potential. Consider that with the J cabin, an airline can:
1. Capture pax who no longer fly longhaul First due to ever-tightening corporate travel policies;
2. Match (and during slower periods, initiate) deep discount Business Class fares offered by the ME3 and others; and
3. Upgrade higher-fare Economy travelers (who at times may pay more than the lowest Business fares) using miles, instruments, and other promotions.
Put another way, Business Class inventory tends to be much more versatile (and supportive of the airline's commercial purposes) than First Class inventory, and that's why the industry is decisively moving away from longhaul F offerings.
1. Capture pax who no longer fly longhaul First due to ever-tightening corporate travel policies;
2. Match (and during slower periods, initiate) deep discount Business Class fares offered by the ME3 and others; and
3. Upgrade higher-fare Economy travelers (who at times may pay more than the lowest Business fares) using miles, instruments, and other promotions.
Put another way, Business Class inventory tends to be much more versatile (and supportive of the airline's commercial purposes) than First Class inventory, and that's why the industry is decisively moving away from longhaul F offerings.
And as for 1, 2, and 3...it only works if you assume the plane is always totally full. Otherwise 1, 2, and 3 all work better by putting the pax into an F seat than a J seat. Not to mention the ability to compete by offering upgrade to full fare J pax.
Jul 21, 2015, 4:32 am
#185
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Planet Earth
Programs: | *G | STE | HGP ♦ | SPG Au | MR Au
Posts: 3,772
Having recently flown in BF and GF on a UA 777, I disagree that the difference between the two is just measured in degrees. When sitting in an aisle BF seat, I was routinely disturbed while trying to sleep thanks to a rambunctious seat mate. There was no "seat mate" in my GF seat, and that made my flight significantly better than the one in BF.
I moved from DL to UA, hoping UA wouldn't follow DL's revenue based model for RDM (boy was I wrong so I am burning all I have with UA before moving on). Having flown both airlines TPAC, I've always felt DL's seats in J (especially the reverse herringbone seats) were similar to UA's F at a lower pricing point than UA F.
Jul 21, 2015, 8:23 am
#187
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,394
I've flown in a suite - it's a considerable amount of additional space and privacy, aside from the soft product benefits (lounge, food, etc). There was no comparison with even the substantial and comfortable J seats behind me, and this was an upgraded Asiana 777.
Some might not appreciate the difference, others will. Depends on the customer - and there are enough customers in the world to keep F busy on certain routes.
Some might not appreciate the difference, others will. Depends on the customer - and there are enough customers in the world to keep F busy on certain routes.
Extra Catering, extra FA's, extra lounges, lots of extra weight on the plane, etc.
Plus if you only have it on certain planes/routes it makes equipment swaps VERY difficult and it's harder to adjust for seasonal demand.
I just think that the small sub-set of people who are willing to shell out the extra 15K for a suite instead of a lie-flat it doesn't make sense for MOST carriers.
The ME3 can offer it because A Oil, B they don't care about profits.
There is probably enough demand for CX/SQ and a 3rd TPAC
And TATL LH/AF/BA are also probably enough.
I think too many airlines are chasing too few people willing to pay cash instead of upgrades/awards to make it a worthwhile venture for UA.
Jul 21, 2015, 10:31 am
#189
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: SEA, WAS, PEK
Programs: UA 3K UGS 3MM
Posts: 2,176
I strongly disagree. It's too late for that. UA is no longer a premium airline. The J class experience (from door to door) is awful and that won't change with a new seat. When F goes away, I'm buying the absolute cheapest P fare or upgrading from Y. Whatever gets me into J for the lowest cost.
Jul 21, 2015, 10:56 am
#190
Join Date: May 2004
Location: PHL
Programs: UA 1k, US ex-CP, NW silver, Marriott plat, SPG gold, Hertz 5*
Posts: 421
I strongly disagree. It's too late for that. UA is no longer a premium airline. The J class experience (from door to door) is awful and that won't change with a new seat. When F goes away, I'm buying the absolute cheapest P fare or upgrading from Y. Whatever gets me into J for the lowest cost.
I can understand the people who say UA is awful and fly someone else and obviously I can understand why someone who is happy (me) continues to fly UA, but this does not compute....
I hate UA and I will continue to fly UA???
Jul 21, 2015, 10:59 am
#191
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,394
If the experience is awful why do you fly United?
I can understand the people who say UA is awful and fly someone else and obviously I can understand why someone who is happy (me) continues to fly UA, but this does not compute....
I hate UA and I will continue to fly UA???
I can understand the people who say UA is awful and fly someone else and obviously I can understand why someone who is happy (me) continues to fly UA, but this does not compute....
I hate UA and I will continue to fly UA???
Jul 21, 2015, 11:24 am
#192
Join Date: Feb 2008
Programs: 6 year GS, now 2MM Jeff-ugee, *wood LTPlt, SkyPeso PLT
Posts: 6,526
When flying United over the last few years, sitting in F, about 75% of my seat mates now hate United, 25% are "meh, they are all bad", over the last three years I can recall one, one single person, who liked United better as a merged carriers (he liked the larger network, admitted he cared less about food/drink) When I ask why they still fly UA of those who hate United, the answer is often "I live in X", often it is "well I have status, and miles on United" rarely is it corporate policy. Recently, when flying in Y (in E+) the answer is always "United was X cheaper than anyone else..."
Jul 21, 2015, 11:26 am
#193
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2003
Programs: UA 1K 1MM (finally!), IHG AMB-Spire, HH Diamond
Posts: 60,174
The argument that you can make more money by replacing empty F seats with higher density J seats is only true if you assume that there is always excess demand for paid J,which is clearly not the case.
The reason F does not work for UA is because it's a poor product relative to the competition and because it's overpriced relative to their own J product.
The reason F does not work for UA is because it's a poor product relative to the competition and because it's overpriced relative to their own J product.
Jul 21, 2015, 11:56 am
#194
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,394
Except for all the people who have ONLY flown united J and have no idea just how much better the CX or SQ product is. I bet a fair number of business travellers who buy paid C just assume the other carriers are the same. And why wouldn't you...they're the same price.
Jul 21, 2015, 11:57 am
#195
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,394
When flying United over the last few years, sitting in F, about 75% of my seat mates now hate United, 25% are "meh, they are all bad", over the last three years I can recall one, one single person, who liked United better as a merged carriers (he liked the larger network, admitted he cared less about food/drink) When I ask why they still fly UA of those who hate United, the answer is often "I live in X", often it is "well I have status, and miles on United" rarely is it corporate policy. Recently, when flying in Y (in E+) the answer is always "United was X cheaper than anyone else..."