Intra-Micronesia United flight costs
May 31, 2015, 3:40 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 243
Intra-Micronesia United flight costs
Is this video now system wide? Where United talks about how they supply the islands in Micronesia with a lifeline and how they have such a great relationship with the community?
Now, don't get me wrong. I have had status on United for years and I do like the airline as long as I am elite its great. If I was not a premier member I would have my complaints. But biz first is great, exit rows are great, united club is great, award availability cant complain.
But, what United is doing to these island communities is not all about bringing roses from the mainland. Lets talk about fares first. 850 miles from Pohnpei to Majuro is $1000 return. 2200 miles from Majuro to Honolulu is $2400.00 return. In perspective the same flight distances over the US are about $300 and $600 return respectively.
Yes, they bring the mail. But the freight rates are so high that the USPS has limited the mail to this region for NON commercial use only! So what good is this lifeline if its too expensive to use.
These islands are POOR. Very poor. Tourism is very small so its mostly locals using the flights to get to and from HNL and GUM getting absolutely ripped off because no other airline flies these routes. Tourism can't grow because it costs to much to get here!
While the price of fuel has gone way down, the fares in this region have not gone down at all. Its really too bad. I was surprised when I saw the intro video about United in the Pacific region. They left out the fact that they are making a ton of $$ from these communities they say they have a great relationship with.
Now, don't get me wrong. I have had status on United for years and I do like the airline as long as I am elite its great. If I was not a premier member I would have my complaints. But biz first is great, exit rows are great, united club is great, award availability cant complain.
But, what United is doing to these island communities is not all about bringing roses from the mainland. Lets talk about fares first. 850 miles from Pohnpei to Majuro is $1000 return. 2200 miles from Majuro to Honolulu is $2400.00 return. In perspective the same flight distances over the US are about $300 and $600 return respectively.
Yes, they bring the mail. But the freight rates are so high that the USPS has limited the mail to this region for NON commercial use only! So what good is this lifeline if its too expensive to use.
These islands are POOR. Very poor. Tourism is very small so its mostly locals using the flights to get to and from HNL and GUM getting absolutely ripped off because no other airline flies these routes. Tourism can't grow because it costs to much to get here!
While the price of fuel has gone way down, the fares in this region have not gone down at all. Its really too bad. I was surprised when I saw the intro video about United in the Pacific region. They left out the fact that they are making a ton of $$ from these communities they say they have a great relationship with.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; May 31, 2015 at 12:16 pm Reason: clarified title
May 31, 2015, 4:04 am
#2
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I thought I read somewhere that locals get a really good deal/price for the flights between the islands. I think the reference was having to go to the doctors and get medical checkups and things like that you have to go to certain islands?
And I think the video has been phased out for the new one talking about direct flights, the SFO-CTU and what not.
And I think the video has been phased out for the new one talking about direct flights, the SFO-CTU and what not.
May 31, 2015, 6:39 am
#5
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I certainly understand the concern raised by the OP but if there was the ability to have true competition then other airlines would be flying between GUM-HNL and Micronesia. Sadly the economies of scale just aren't there. This is the same thing when it comes to shipping to the Micronesia region. Unless the government were to throw in a subsidy I doubt you'd get any real competition.
May 31, 2015, 11:11 am
#7
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But, what United is doing to these island communities is not all about bringing roses from the mainland. Lets talk about fares first. 850 miles from Pohnpei to Majuro is $1000 return. 2200 miles from Majuro to Honolulu is $2400.00 return. In perspective the same flight distances over the US are about $300 and $600 return respectively.
When was the last tanker/barge delivery of Jet A to Pohnpei/Majuro and what was the FOB price?
May 31, 2015, 8:12 pm
#8
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Ding. And UA's not doing anything wrong there. Although it does surprise me that locals don't get a discount; it seems like a smart way to price discriminate. Overall, it's too bad fares are so high; I would love to go to FSM sometime. Maybe I'll slide it into an award booking someday.
May 31, 2015, 10:07 pm
#9
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I understand the value proposition, my point was even the supply side is more expensive than the mainland, and I'd like info from the op on how the "price of fuel has gone way down" on these islands since he apparently claims to know.
May 31, 2015, 10:34 pm
#10
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Posts: 2,508
SEZ is lucky with flights to DXB/AUH to leverage off tourists from Europe.
PPT is pretty much supported due to its status as overseas department of France.
AFAIK, US is only obligated to support Micronesia with some social services (mail, FEMA, etc.) and defense.
^ can't compare US mainland flights, given the competition and hub connecting options.
Last edited by hirohito888; May 31, 2015 at 10:42 pm
Jun 1, 2015, 4:58 am
#12
Join Date: Mar 2009
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I too thought that the intra-island trips had some sort of locals discount, so hearing there is no such discount for these poor islands is disappointing. I flew the Island Hopper in February, my trip was originally to go through to HKG to trigger the through fare because IAD-SFO-HNL-MAJ-KWA-KSA-PNI-TKK-GUM-HKG was half the fare than IAD-SFO-HNL-MAJ-KWA-KSA-PNI-TKK-GUM alone (but thousands of miles more of expense for UA to provide, go figure).
Unfortunately I never made it to HKG because of a 22 hour MX stranding in MAJ and 11 hour pilot rest stranding in TKK. Fortunately, making lemonade out of lemons, the IRROPS allowed me to explore both the Marshall Islands and Micronesia without getting price gouged by Jeffie, whose staff provided a hotel in MAJ and meal vouchers/meals. UA also provided a $150 eCert after the fact, which was a nice bonus over nothing but very low for a 30-hour combined delay (my wife got more for VDBing to a 5 hour later nonstop IAD-TPA a week earlier), and I also think that reflects UA knowing they have a monopoly in these islands.
Hearing that United's rates are so high USPS only ships noncommercial mail via the Island Hopper is even more disheartening. Frankly, I've been wondering if United and the Island Hopper may be the reason Amazon doesn't deliver to Micronesia or the Marshall Islands...doing math in my head...a surge in consumer product shipments of stuff you cannot affordably get on the islands...requires more cargo space than the current 737-800 triweekly operation has...triggers a need for more flights, but that means that United needs to have a fourth round trip a week...which means that United would need to have departures on consecutive days at least once a week...which means United needs TO DEDICATE A SECOND AIRCRAFT TO THE ROUTE which Jeffie and Chicago are probably trying to avoid...since the current Hopper can likely be flown with a single bird going back and forth, east one day/west the next (or some other equivalent).
United has a monopoly here and has turned their high cost route into a high cost/high revenue proposition, but I have read in several places that the Island Hopper was wildly profitable for Continental Micronesia, so this may have been in place long before the merger.
Three thoughts on competition:
1) FUEL RANGE is an issue, you can't fly a RJ HNL-MAJ. Maybe this will change as some new aircraft types (Cseries?) enter the market, but United had to fly a 737-700 empty from GUM to MAJ just to deliver the APU (Auxiliary Power Unit) they needed to fix the Island Hopper 737-800 I was flying on. This likely creates a huge barrier to entry as whoever would enter this market needs deep pockets and big birds.
2) Even if fuel range can be conquered with a new smaller bird like a CS100 on more frequent service (or if the market got split between two competing carriers), you need two sets of pilots and an FAA waiver to fly this thing. Having fewer people and less stuff in the back of the plane to divvy up those costs makes things pricier per passenger/pound.
3) If you think the Island Hopper is not serving these islands well, google and read into the challenges faced by CW (Air Marshall Islands) delivering passengers between MAJ and the outer islands. In theory they have two aircraft, but for the past few years they've been down to one and often have zero working planes. Tourism to some of the outer diving islands has collapsed as air service disappeared. From what I read it's due to the horrid condition of some of the runways on the outer islands bursting the tires and damaging the landing gear of CW's tiny prop planes. (Observation: given that most of CW's destinations are atolls with protected lagoons I wonder if it might be cheaper to do a seaplane operation with docks than try to ship concrete thousands of miles from the mainland to fix nearly two dozen runways).
Unfortunately I never made it to HKG because of a 22 hour MX stranding in MAJ and 11 hour pilot rest stranding in TKK. Fortunately, making lemonade out of lemons, the IRROPS allowed me to explore both the Marshall Islands and Micronesia without getting price gouged by Jeffie, whose staff provided a hotel in MAJ and meal vouchers/meals. UA also provided a $150 eCert after the fact, which was a nice bonus over nothing but very low for a 30-hour combined delay (my wife got more for VDBing to a 5 hour later nonstop IAD-TPA a week earlier), and I also think that reflects UA knowing they have a monopoly in these islands.
Hearing that United's rates are so high USPS only ships noncommercial mail via the Island Hopper is even more disheartening. Frankly, I've been wondering if United and the Island Hopper may be the reason Amazon doesn't deliver to Micronesia or the Marshall Islands...doing math in my head...a surge in consumer product shipments of stuff you cannot affordably get on the islands...requires more cargo space than the current 737-800 triweekly operation has...triggers a need for more flights, but that means that United needs to have a fourth round trip a week...which means that United would need to have departures on consecutive days at least once a week...which means United needs TO DEDICATE A SECOND AIRCRAFT TO THE ROUTE which Jeffie and Chicago are probably trying to avoid...since the current Hopper can likely be flown with a single bird going back and forth, east one day/west the next (or some other equivalent).
United has a monopoly here and has turned their high cost route into a high cost/high revenue proposition, but I have read in several places that the Island Hopper was wildly profitable for Continental Micronesia, so this may have been in place long before the merger.
Three thoughts on competition:
1) FUEL RANGE is an issue, you can't fly a RJ HNL-MAJ. Maybe this will change as some new aircraft types (Cseries?) enter the market, but United had to fly a 737-700 empty from GUM to MAJ just to deliver the APU (Auxiliary Power Unit) they needed to fix the Island Hopper 737-800 I was flying on. This likely creates a huge barrier to entry as whoever would enter this market needs deep pockets and big birds.
2) Even if fuel range can be conquered with a new smaller bird like a CS100 on more frequent service (or if the market got split between two competing carriers), you need two sets of pilots and an FAA waiver to fly this thing. Having fewer people and less stuff in the back of the plane to divvy up those costs makes things pricier per passenger/pound.
3) If you think the Island Hopper is not serving these islands well, google and read into the challenges faced by CW (Air Marshall Islands) delivering passengers between MAJ and the outer islands. In theory they have two aircraft, but for the past few years they've been down to one and often have zero working planes. Tourism to some of the outer diving islands has collapsed as air service disappeared. From what I read it's due to the horrid condition of some of the runways on the outer islands bursting the tires and damaging the landing gear of CW's tiny prop planes. (Observation: given that most of CW's destinations are atolls with protected lagoons I wonder if it might be cheaper to do a seaplane operation with docks than try to ship concrete thousands of miles from the mainland to fix nearly two dozen runways).
Last edited by aoumd; Jun 1, 2015 at 5:12 am
Jun 1, 2015, 10:27 pm
#13
Original Poster
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 243
I live out here and fly for business about once every other week throughout the region, so I do have pretty good knowledge of the area. A few points:
1. Yes locals get a discount on Intra island flights between TKK, PNI, KSA, KWA and MAJ. The difference in fare is depending on route. For instance customers with a US billing address pay 500.00 each way MAJ-PNI; tickets purchased at the local united office are $350.000. But, there is no discount from anywhere to GUM or HNL.
2. I have no idea about Jet fuel, but I do know the price of gasoline went down about 20% recently when oil prices tanked. Its back up to its old level now though again...hovering around $5/gallon on most islands.
3. Continental Micronesia was getting a subsidy from the governments out here. No idea about United.
4. AMI has its own challenges. Yes the outer island runways are in bad shape, but United is only flying to FAA airports which are all normal runways you'd expect anywhere else. Maybe a bit shorter, but they are all being expanded currently. But a lot of AMI's problems come from the fact that its government owned and they refuse to raise fares since I think the 90s. So even running with full planes is not profitable
5. Price of housing - all crew is Guam based. Price of food - an average dinner price with a glass of wine will run about $12.00-15.00.
6. This is probably the only region in the world that the new revenue based mileage system has helped! In the past we got 800 miles for 1000.00 bucks. Now Its minimum 5,000.
Recently Majuro tried to make a 4% airline tax. United spoke out against it. Good on Majuro's mayor Mudge Samuel. He quipped right back that you're (United) worried about your fares raising 4% when your fares are already insanely high and the price hasn't ever come down...only gone up. United even claimed they couldn't make their computer's work to collect the tax. He asked how they do it in every other city in the world but couldn't do it for the islands. In the end the tax didn't go through anyways.
Air Nauru has just entered the Intra island market and will begin service next week. It will run from Nauru, Majuro, Kosare, PNI and back. Return fares from MAJ-PNI are advertised at 275.00. Compare this with United's 1000.00 fare. Only time will tell if this is profitable but I have heard the United execs have been throwing a fit with the governments here because this very, very profitable route might be hammered.
1. Yes locals get a discount on Intra island flights between TKK, PNI, KSA, KWA and MAJ. The difference in fare is depending on route. For instance customers with a US billing address pay 500.00 each way MAJ-PNI; tickets purchased at the local united office are $350.000. But, there is no discount from anywhere to GUM or HNL.
2. I have no idea about Jet fuel, but I do know the price of gasoline went down about 20% recently when oil prices tanked. Its back up to its old level now though again...hovering around $5/gallon on most islands.
3. Continental Micronesia was getting a subsidy from the governments out here. No idea about United.
4. AMI has its own challenges. Yes the outer island runways are in bad shape, but United is only flying to FAA airports which are all normal runways you'd expect anywhere else. Maybe a bit shorter, but they are all being expanded currently. But a lot of AMI's problems come from the fact that its government owned and they refuse to raise fares since I think the 90s. So even running with full planes is not profitable
5. Price of housing - all crew is Guam based. Price of food - an average dinner price with a glass of wine will run about $12.00-15.00.
6. This is probably the only region in the world that the new revenue based mileage system has helped! In the past we got 800 miles for 1000.00 bucks. Now Its minimum 5,000.
Recently Majuro tried to make a 4% airline tax. United spoke out against it. Good on Majuro's mayor Mudge Samuel. He quipped right back that you're (United) worried about your fares raising 4% when your fares are already insanely high and the price hasn't ever come down...only gone up. United even claimed they couldn't make their computer's work to collect the tax. He asked how they do it in every other city in the world but couldn't do it for the islands. In the end the tax didn't go through anyways.
Air Nauru has just entered the Intra island market and will begin service next week. It will run from Nauru, Majuro, Kosare, PNI and back. Return fares from MAJ-PNI are advertised at 275.00. Compare this with United's 1000.00 fare. Only time will tell if this is profitable but I have heard the United execs have been throwing a fit with the governments here because this very, very profitable route might be hammered.
Jun 1, 2015, 11:27 pm
#14
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: DC Suburbs
Programs: DL Gold, Hilton Gold, Carnival VIFP Gold, Hyatt Discoverist
Posts: 459
I live out here and fly for business about once every other week throughout the region, so I do have pretty good knowledge of the area. A few points:
1. Yes locals get a discount on Intra island flights between TKK, PNI, KSA, KWA and MAJ. The difference in fare is depending on route. For instance customers with a US billing address pay 500.00 each way MAJ-PNI; tickets purchased at the local united office are $350.000. But, there is no discount from anywhere to GUM or HNL.
2. I have no idea about Jet fuel, but I do know the price of gasoline went down about 20% recently when oil prices tanked. Its back up to its old level now though again...hovering around $5/gallon on most islands.
3. Continental Micronesia was getting a subsidy from the governments out here. No idea about United.
4. AMI has its own challenges. Yes the outer island runways are in bad shape, but United is only flying to FAA airports which are all normal runways you'd expect anywhere else. Maybe a bit shorter, but they are all being expanded currently. But a lot of AMI's problems come from the fact that its government owned and they refuse to raise fares since I think the 90s. So even running with full planes is not profitable
5. Price of housing - all crew is Guam based. Price of food - an average dinner price with a glass of wine will run about $12.00-15.00.
6. This is probably the only region in the world that the new revenue based mileage system has helped! In the past we got 800 miles for 1000.00 bucks. Now Its minimum 5,000.
Recently Majuro tried to make a 4% airline tax. United spoke out against it. Good on Majuro's mayor Mudge Samuel. He quipped right back that you're (United) worried about your fares raising 4% when your fares are already insanely high and the price hasn't ever come down...only gone up. United even claimed they couldn't make their computer's work to collect the tax. He asked how they do it in every other city in the world but couldn't do it for the islands. In the end the tax didn't go through anyways.
Air Nauru has just entered the Intra island market and will begin service next week. It will run from Nauru, Majuro, Kosare, PNI and back. Return fares from MAJ-PNI are advertised at 275.00. Compare this with United's 1000.00 fare. Only time will tell if this is profitable but I have heard the United execs have been throwing a fit with the governments here because this very, very profitable route might be hammered.
1. Yes locals get a discount on Intra island flights between TKK, PNI, KSA, KWA and MAJ. The difference in fare is depending on route. For instance customers with a US billing address pay 500.00 each way MAJ-PNI; tickets purchased at the local united office are $350.000. But, there is no discount from anywhere to GUM or HNL.
2. I have no idea about Jet fuel, but I do know the price of gasoline went down about 20% recently when oil prices tanked. Its back up to its old level now though again...hovering around $5/gallon on most islands.
3. Continental Micronesia was getting a subsidy from the governments out here. No idea about United.
4. AMI has its own challenges. Yes the outer island runways are in bad shape, but United is only flying to FAA airports which are all normal runways you'd expect anywhere else. Maybe a bit shorter, but they are all being expanded currently. But a lot of AMI's problems come from the fact that its government owned and they refuse to raise fares since I think the 90s. So even running with full planes is not profitable
5. Price of housing - all crew is Guam based. Price of food - an average dinner price with a glass of wine will run about $12.00-15.00.
6. This is probably the only region in the world that the new revenue based mileage system has helped! In the past we got 800 miles for 1000.00 bucks. Now Its minimum 5,000.
Recently Majuro tried to make a 4% airline tax. United spoke out against it. Good on Majuro's mayor Mudge Samuel. He quipped right back that you're (United) worried about your fares raising 4% when your fares are already insanely high and the price hasn't ever come down...only gone up. United even claimed they couldn't make their computer's work to collect the tax. He asked how they do it in every other city in the world but couldn't do it for the islands. In the end the tax didn't go through anyways.
Air Nauru has just entered the Intra island market and will begin service next week. It will run from Nauru, Majuro, Kosare, PNI and back. Return fares from MAJ-PNI are advertised at 275.00. Compare this with United's 1000.00 fare. Only time will tell if this is profitable but I have heard the United execs have been throwing a fit with the governments here because this very, very profitable route might be hammered.
Good luck Air Nauru on providing some competition, would be nice if someone could do so to HNL, GUM or other major cities in the outside world.
Jun 1, 2015, 11:50 pm
#15
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Join Date: Feb 2015
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Posts: 4,157
Nauru Airlines schedule, effective 12 June 2015:
http://www.ourairline.com.au
Lowest MAJ-PNI R/T fare online is AU$443 incl. tax.
MAJ-KSA R/T: AU$289, PNI-KSA R/T: AU$305.
Code:
FRIDAY ON033 Nauru 1425 Tarawa 1540 ON033 Tarawa 1650 Majuro 1800 ON033 Majuro 1845 Kosrae 1915 ON033 Kosrae 1945 Pohnpei 2045 SUNDAY ON032 Pohnpei 0600 Kosrae 0700 ON032 Kosrae 0745 Majuro 1015 ON032 Majuro 1100 Tarawa 1210 ON032 Tarawa 1255 Nauru 1410
Lowest MAJ-PNI R/T fare online is AU$443 incl. tax.
MAJ-KSA R/T: AU$289, PNI-KSA R/T: AU$305.
Last edited by UA1K_no_more; Jun 2, 2015 at 12:11 am