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-   -   UA Pilot Diverts to Remove Autistic Child From Plane for Safety Reasons (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/united-airlines-mileageplus/1678775-ua-pilot-diverts-remove-autistic-child-plane-safety-reasons.html)

Baze May 13, 2015 1:31 pm


Originally Posted by Cargojon (Post 24810149)
See below. In actuality they are required to provide a reasonable accommodation. And the "passenger safety" argument is invalidated by their failure to do so.

This is where UA fails and this is why they were wrong. Taken from http://www.ada.gov/qandaeng.htm

You are really stretching the requirement to the breaking point and beyond.

And they did provide a hot meal, they took one from F or a crew member. Above the required.

And they only denied them service when it became a threat which happened when the mother said the child would become violent. Are you saying they have to accommodate at the expense of everyones safety when a person of needs becomes violent? They did not divert and have them deplane because the child was autistic, they did it because the mother proclaimed the child would get violent and could hurt someone.

MSPeconomist May 13, 2015 1:34 pm


Originally Posted by Cargojon (Post 24810149)
See below. In actuality they are required to provide a reasonable accommodation. And the "passenger safety" argument is invalidated by their failure to do so.

This is where UA fails and this is why they were wrong. Taken from http://www.ada.gov/qandaeng.htm

ADA doesn't apply to airlines. They're covered by ACAA.

saneman May 13, 2015 1:38 pm

Scratching doesnt mean violent
 
She most probably meant the kid was going to start scratching herslef. That's what nervous or kids with special compulsions do. They don't go looking for someone else to scratch in other rows. If everyone in charge stopped looking for drama, then they would understand that. as I have said, the mother does seem to be a little bit of an self entitled lady judging by her facebook postings. Still, I keep reading throughout this thread about "threats". Give me a break.

And it seems obvious the FAs were ready to kick them out as they were serving the hot meal. Again, my question to the mother was what if the airline didn't have a hot meal. So I am not letting her off the hook fully. But the way things unfolded, no matter what I think of the mother's behavior, the airline overreacted and wasted a lot of people's time.

EDIT: Looks like they meant scratching others too judging by her scratching of her father. Still, I don't think she would have scratched someone in a different row. If I am sitting in the next row, my preference would be to reach Portland ASAP, not worry about some kid trying to get out of her row to come scratch me.

beachmouse May 13, 2015 1:39 pm

Anyone else remember the thread a while back when a deaf passenger claimed that the airlines would be in violation of ADA because they wouldn't let him sit in an exit row?

MSPeconomist May 13, 2015 1:44 pm

I don't think ordering a special meal in advance would have been an option. First of all, hot isn't a category that one can pick. Secondly, you can't request a special meal for a flight that doesn't have meal service in your confirmed cabin. Finally, AFAIK USA carriers now only offer special meals on especially long, primarily international (and maybe Hawaii? maybe the nonstop transcon p.s. flights?) routes, not on normal domestic flights.

Baze May 13, 2015 1:46 pm


Originally Posted by saneman (Post 24810650)
She most probably meant the kid was going to start scratching herslef. That's what nervous or kids with special compulsions do. They don't go looking for someone else to scratch in other rows. If everyone in charge stopped looking for drama, then they would understand that. as I have said, the mother does seem to be a little bit of an self entitled lady judging by her facebook postings. Still, I keep reading throughout this thread about "threats". Give me a break.

And it seems obvious the FAs were ready to kick them out as they were serving the hot meal. Again, my question to the mother was what if the airline didn't have a hot meal. So I am not letting her off the hook fully. But the way things unfolded, no matter what I think of the mother's behavior, the airline overreacted and wasted a lot of people's time.

She was quoted as saying in one of the articles the child may scratch someone. That is a direct threat that the child could start hurting someone else. And in the article some people were on the families side and others were on UA's side. I am not going to take sides as I wasn't there and most likely you weren't either.

greg99 May 13, 2015 1:47 pm


Originally Posted by saneman (Post 24810650)
She most probably meant the kid was going to start scratching herslef. That's what nervous or kids with special compulsions do. They don't go looking for someone else to scratch in other rows.

That may be true, but that's not what she said, according to her own FB post:


Frustrated I said, after she has a melt down and tries to scratch in frustration, will you help her then?
You also have to consider the context, based upon the reports of other passengers that she was being disruptive by moaning, etc.

I think one paragraph in Mom's FB post is really telling:


This was a sheer case of ignorance. Prejudice, ignorance and mistreatment are all too common toward people facing poverty. The parallels between special needs and poverty are striking in that both are causes for judgement, misunderstanding and mistreatment.
This incident seems to have much less to do with UA and much more to do with Mom and her interest in making particular quasi-political statements.

Greg

MSPeconomist May 13, 2015 1:48 pm


Originally Posted by Baze (Post 24810716)
She was quoted as saying in one of the articles the child may scratch someone. That is a direct threat that the child could start hurting someone else. And in the article some people were on the families side and others were on UA's side. I am not going to take sides as I wasn't there and most likely you weren't either.

Somewhere I saw a statement that the kid had scratched her father, who was sitting next to her, on the flight. I don't know whether this supposedly happened before or after the kid got the hot FC meal.

saneman May 13, 2015 1:48 pm

correction on scratching
 
OK, I need to expand the scratching to include the family around her. I still doubt she would have been seeking people outside her immediate vicinity to make physical contact with. She probably considers her and her parents to be of the same "space".

EDIT: I just saw the video. Looks like she did scratch her dad.

JBord May 13, 2015 1:57 pm


Originally Posted by saneman (Post 24810734)
OK, I need to expand the scratching to include the family around her. I still doubt she would have been seeking people outside her immediate vicinity to make physical contact with. She probably considers her and her parents to be of the same "space".

EDIT: I just saw the video. Looks like she did scratch her dad.

And the FA should reasonably assume what you're suggesting to be the case? How in the heck, after scratching her father, and the mother making threats about it, would the FA not at least inform the captain of the situation?

That's what happened. The captain then made a decision to divert. In the world of air travel, when there's any potential of danger to passengers, you err on the side of caution.

The fact that you feel the child probably wouldn't have scratched others is totally irrelevant. If the FA or captain did, they need to act.

phltraveler May 13, 2015 1:58 pm


Originally Posted by saneman (Post 24810650)
She most probably meant the kid was going to start scratching herslef. That's what nervous or kids with special compulsions do. They don't go looking for someone else to scratch in other rows. If everyone in charge stopped looking for drama, then they would understand that. as I have said, the mother does seem to be a little bit of an self entitled lady judging by her facebook postings. Still, I keep reading throughout this thread about "threats". Give me a break.

Link

"Juliette was beginning to cry," Beegle said. "I said, after she has a melt down and tries to scratch in frustration, will you help her then?"

Self-injurious behavior, such as scratching, is often exhibited by people with developmental disabilities as a result of frustration, according to the Autism Research Institute. The attendant eventually brought Juliette a hot meal from First Class. The plane then made an unexpected landing in Salt Lake, where two paramedics boarded the plane.
Link 2

Beegle said she told flight attendants that her daughter was about to have a tantrum, and that she could scratch someone.
So in different articles the Mom says she indicated the daughter would self-injure via scratching or would scratch others (unprovoked physical contact that causes pain/wounds, however superficial, is considered assault + battery & could leave UA liable to claims from other passengers) if her tantrum continued.

MSPeconomist May 13, 2015 2:02 pm

Even if the kid just injures herself, it could become a medical emergency if sufficiently severe.

JBord May 13, 2015 2:13 pm


Originally Posted by phltraveler (Post 24810797)
So in different articles the Mom says she indicated the daughter would self-injure via scratching or would scratch others (unprovoked physical contact that causes pain/wounds, however superficial, is considered assault + battery & could leave UA liable to claims from other passengers) if her tantrum continued.

This is exactly the point many people seem to be missing. Most of us weren't on this flight. But many people are commenting on how they're sure the FA overreacted or they're sure the kid wouldn't have hurt anyone.

The mother herself, in the links you provided, isn't clear. In an unclear situation, you can either a) ignore it and wait for clarity, or b) take the most cautious approach to avoid an escalation.

As a customer, I always want United to take the cautious approach in safety situations. Sometimes that means you upset a few people.

mduell May 13, 2015 2:28 pm


Originally Posted by Cargojon (Post 24809415)
Lol this possibly the dumbest thing I've read on here in a long time. Special needs not the sole responsibility of those afflicted with them or caring for them. You are saying in effect that wheelchair ramps are the problem of the person in the wheelchair... What you have said completely flies in the face of the ADA.

The ADA statutory language exempts air transportation.


Originally Posted by SuzanneSLO (Post 24809747)
In some accounts, the Mom states that the family had dinner before the flight but that the daughter was unwilling to eat anything. If Mom decided that daughter should not get on the plane until she had a meal, would United have accommodated them on a later flight from Houston? -- Suzanne

Yes, any flight up to 24h later, subject to availability.


Originally Posted by phltraveler (Post 24810490)
14 CFR Part 382.11 does not require airlines to provide food as a service to passengers with disabilities on an aircraft. United's policy is that special meals require 24 hours notice. If a hot meal was a requirement for safe transportation, then the parents should have requested it in advance with appropriate warning for United to accommodate, asked for a later flight, or taken hot food from the terminal on board the aircraft.

Would UA even cater a meal on request on a non-meal flight (for the passengers ticketed cabin)?

There's no special meal for "hot meal" listed on their website, so I'm not sure UA could even provide one.


Originally Posted by MSPeconomist (Post 24810703)
I don't think ordering a special meal in advance would have been an option. First of all, hot isn't a category that one can pick. Secondly, you can't request a special meal for a flight that doesn't have meal service in your confirmed cabin. Finally, AFAIK USA carriers now only offer special meals on especially long, primarily international (and maybe Hawaii? maybe the nonstop transcon p.s. flights?) routes, not on normal domestic flights.

Yes, this.

cruisr May 13, 2015 2:28 pm


Originally Posted by phltraveler (Post 24810797)
Link


Link 2


So in different articles the Mom says she indicated the daughter would self-injure via scratching or would scratch others (unprovoked physical contact that causes pain/wounds, however superficial, is considered assault + battery & could leave UA liable to claims from other passengers) if her tantrum continued.

The Mom keeps finessing her story. Can you imagine if they did not divert and for whatever reason the teen had another scratching incident, this time of the passenger in the seat in front of her, what the liability for UA would be? It would be huge since they had already been warned by the Mom that the teen could go ballistic and start scratching.

The Mom did everything wrong and continues to do so. UA was correct. The more I read about the woman the more I feel sorry for her family.


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