UA charged me more for an upgrade 2 weeks AFTER my flight!!
Mar 18, 2015, 2:24 pm
#61
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: NY
Programs: AA: ExPlat & 3MM; UA: 1k; KL: Plat 4 Life; Hyatt: Plat; SPG, Marriott, Hilton: Gold
Posts: 2,709
The distinction is whether or not the OP deliberately took advantage of a glitch by doing something specific in the booking to trick the system vs just being a neutral beneficiary...but I agree - regardless of intent, the merchant cannot balance bill after the fact without going through proper notification channels to seek payment from the cardholder.
I booked a ticket and bought what they offered me.
I have been offered other amounts for upgrades in past and make my decision based on that set of circumstances
Mar 18, 2015, 2:34 pm
#62
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: LAX/TPE
Programs: United 1K, JAL Sapphire, SPG Lifetime Platinum, National Executive Elite, Hertz PC, Avis PC
Posts: 42,277
I booked a ticket and when went to upgrade link, this was what was offered. Was I supposed to refuse since too cheap? Was I supposed to call UA and ask them to charge me more?
I booked a ticket and bought what they offered me.
I have been offered other amounts for upgrades in past and make my decision based on that set of circumstances
I booked a ticket and bought what they offered me.
I have been offered other amounts for upgrades in past and make my decision based on that set of circumstances
Just do the DOT and credit card dispute and don't worry about it.
Mar 18, 2015, 2:44 pm
#63
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: BOS, PVG
Programs: United 1K and 1MM, Marriott Ambassador
Posts: 10,000
I booked a ticket and when went to upgrade link, this was what was offered. Was I supposed to refuse since too cheap? Was I supposed to call UA and ask them to charge me more?
I booked a ticket and bought what they offered me.
I have been offered other amounts for upgrades in past and make my decision based on that set of circumstances
I booked a ticket and bought what they offered me.
I have been offered other amounts for upgrades in past and make my decision based on that set of circumstances
It's UA's problem if their IT can't produce correct upgrade price (but due to SHARES dynamic pricing so how do we know it's correct or not)
You did not break any rules.
Mar 18, 2015, 2:46 pm
#64
Join Date: Feb 2014
Programs: UA Plat, SPG Gold, Marriott Gold
Posts: 677
I don't think it was right for UA to go back and charge the credit card for more money without a further authorization.
But deducting the miles...not sure. MP rules give UA pretty broad authority over miles in an account. And I'm also not encouraged by the fact that the OP selectively disclosed information and withheld unfavorable information (like the fact that he/she was knowingly benefiting from a glitch) as "irrelevant." If it really was irrelevant, it would have been harmless to disclose; the fact that the OP was reluctant to disclose it after repeated requests from other posters (seeking more information before offering advice) suggests that it actually is relevant and unfavorable. Eventually, however, someone correctly guessed what happened.
But deducting the miles...not sure. MP rules give UA pretty broad authority over miles in an account. And I'm also not encouraged by the fact that the OP selectively disclosed information and withheld unfavorable information (like the fact that he/she was knowingly benefiting from a glitch) as "irrelevant." If it really was irrelevant, it would have been harmless to disclose; the fact that the OP was reluctant to disclose it after repeated requests from other posters (seeking more information before offering advice) suggests that it actually is relevant and unfavorable. Eventually, however, someone correctly guessed what happened.
Mar 18, 2015, 2:54 pm
#66
Formerly known as CollegeFlyer
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: JRA
Programs: UA 1K MM, AA PLT, Hyatt Diamond, Marriott Gold, Hertz 5*
Posts: 6,716
As Kacee pointed out earlier in this thread - debating the ethics of what OP did is of little to no value as it really isn't relevant legally, and beating him/her up and making moral judgments - while possibly entertaining - isn't what is going on here...
UA made OP an offer, consumer accepted, and then UA retroactively changed the price for the service - and took the money, without permission. Period.
OP's apparent knowledge - or not - of existing system "glitches" really isn't relevant. Forget the current situation - what if UA were to decide that EWR-LAX was suddenly worth $250 more per ticket than they had charged - and then billed everyone who flew in the last three weeks for it - would anyone here think that is right? I doubt it.... Obviously a different situation - but it's the same legal concept at work. Regardless of one's opinion of OP action's - UA can't be allowed to do this...
UA made OP an offer, consumer accepted, and then UA retroactively changed the price for the service - and took the money, without permission. Period.
OP's apparent knowledge - or not - of existing system "glitches" really isn't relevant. Forget the current situation - what if UA were to decide that EWR-LAX was suddenly worth $250 more per ticket than they had charged - and then billed everyone who flew in the last three weeks for it - would anyone here think that is right? I doubt it.... Obviously a different situation - but it's the same legal concept at work. Regardless of one's opinion of OP action's - UA can't be allowed to do this...
When one party unknowingly benefits from another party's mistake, it's a different legal situation than when one party knowingly takes advantage of another party's mistake.
Mar 18, 2015, 3:02 pm
#67
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PHX
Programs: AS 75K; UA 1MM; Hyatt Globalist; Marriott LTP; Hilton Diamond (Aspire)
Posts: 56,561
The ethics issue gets debated at length every time there's a mistake fare. It's actually a fascinating issue because what at first seems to be a straightforward ethical question - should one take advantage of another's known mistake? - is complicated by the generally shared view that the airlines in general, and UA in particular, regularly ignore the rules, abuse their superior bargaining power, and frequently mistreat their customers. This leads people who would never think of keeping the extra $20 the cashier mistakenly gave them to vigorously defend their right to exploit an airline mistake as compensation for all the wrongs the airline has previously done them.
That's not correct. Knowledge of the mistake does not justify a self-help remedy by the aggrieved party. Ask OJ about that. The unauthorized charge was just wrong.
Mar 18, 2015, 3:03 pm
#68
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NYC / TYO / Up in the Air
Programs: UA GS 1.7MM, AA 2.1MM, EK, BA, SQ, CX, Marriot LT, Accor P
Posts: 6,356
This analysis is not correct. The OP's knowledge and intent are legally relevant to the question of what UA is allowed and not allowed to do.
When one party unknowingly benefits from another party's mistake, it's a different legal situation than when one party knowingly takes advantage of another party's mistake.
When one party unknowingly benefits from another party's mistake, it's a different legal situation than when one party knowingly takes advantage of another party's mistake.
Mar 18, 2015, 3:06 pm
#69
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: SEA/YVR/BLI
Programs: UA "Lifetime" Gold, AS MVPG100K, OW Emerald, HH Lifetime Diamond, IC Plat, Marriott Gold, Hertz Gold
Posts: 9,490
This analysis is not correct. The OP's knowledge and intent are legally relevant to the question of what UA is allowed and not allowed to do.
When one party unknowingly benefits from another party's mistake, it's a different legal situation than when one party knowingly takes advantage of another party's mistake.
When one party unknowingly benefits from another party's mistake, it's a different legal situation than when one party knowingly takes advantage of another party's mistake.
Something for me at least to ponder...
Good point!
Mar 18, 2015, 3:07 pm
#70
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NYC / TYO / Up in the Air
Programs: UA GS 1.7MM, AA 2.1MM, EK, BA, SQ, CX, Marriot LT, Accor P
Posts: 6,356
Exactly. And they did so after the service had already been provided, so OP was never given the opportunity to choose whether he wanted to pay the higher price.
The ethics issue gets debated at length every time there's a mistake fare. It's actually a fascinating issue because what at first seems to be a straightforward ethical question - should one take advantage of another's known mistake? - is complicated by the generally shared view that the airlines in general, and UA in particular, regularly ignore the rules, abuse their superior bargaining power, and frequently mistreat their customers. This leads people who would never think of keeping the extra $20 the cashier mistakenly gave them to vigorously defend their right to exploit an airline mistake as compensation for all the wrongs the airline has previously done them.
The ethics issue gets debated at length every time there's a mistake fare. It's actually a fascinating issue because what at first seems to be a straightforward ethical question - should one take advantage of another's known mistake? - is complicated by the generally shared view that the airlines in general, and UA in particular, regularly ignore the rules, abuse their superior bargaining power, and frequently mistreat their customers. This leads people who would never think of keeping the extra $20 the cashier mistakenly gave them to vigorously defend their right to exploit an airline mistake as compensation for all the wrongs the airline has previously done them.
Mar 18, 2015, 3:08 pm
#71
Formerly known as CollegeFlyer
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: JRA
Programs: UA 1K MM, AA PLT, Hyatt Diamond, Marriott Gold, Hertz 5*
Posts: 6,716
The fact that some remedy is justified does not necessarily mean that the particular remedy that United wanted in this situation was justified.
LOL you are right - it is an interesting thing to debate but legally, there isn't much to debate. No court - at least here in the US - would say that the average consumer would/should have more insight into airline pricing practices than the airline itself - which, at the end of the day, is really what we are talking about ethically... The court would say simply - if UA is dumb enough to offer this to a consumer then they must honor it...
I don't think the credit card charge was appropriate, but I think UA probably would have been justified to deduct the miles and send the OP a bill requesting the OP's payment.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Mar 18, 2015 at 3:33 pm Reason: merging consecutive posts by same member - please use multi-quoting
Mar 18, 2015, 3:14 pm
#72
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PHX
Programs: AS 75K; UA 1MM; Hyatt Globalist; Marriott LTP; Hilton Diamond (Aspire)
Posts: 56,561
OP's knowledge and intent do not justify UA's exercise of an unlawful self-help remedy. Period.
Nice back-pedaling though
Mar 18, 2015, 3:15 pm
#73
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: NYC / TYO / Up in the Air
Programs: UA GS 1.7MM, AA 2.1MM, EK, BA, SQ, CX, Marriot LT, Accor P
Posts: 6,356
Honestly - I am surprised you don't see the legal logic in OP's situation, regardless of your opinions of their intent...
Mar 18, 2015, 3:29 pm
#74
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,933
Breaking my self imposed exile from this forum to make one point!
The OP did what many people have figured out and have been doing for years. UA can and will do anything that they want regarding the removal of miles from one's account in order to be compensated for a pax that occupies one of their seats, and that includes upgrades. As far as charging more $ for a seat after the fact, that is something that the OP should pursue, on his own, and by coming on here, for what ever reason, he is screwing many of us who upgrade using the tactic that the OP used.
Most people upgrade using this method on domestic flights, however the OP seems to have lucked out and managed to get upgraded on and international itinerary ALL THE WAY OVER & BACK, and he got challenged. UA's system does have a glitch, but by coming on here and making a BIG deal out of it, he may have possibly screwed up something that was a good thing for everyone else.
LOOSE LIPS sink ships!
So before all the backyard attorneys get all teary eyed that "It Ain't Right" remember the OP is only being charged for a seat that he occupied. I know, I know, UA charged him an additional fee, after the fact, and he may win that argument, and in turn by blabbing on here, he just messed up what used to be a good thing!
NOT COOL!!!
The OP did what many people have figured out and have been doing for years. UA can and will do anything that they want regarding the removal of miles from one's account in order to be compensated for a pax that occupies one of their seats, and that includes upgrades. As far as charging more $ for a seat after the fact, that is something that the OP should pursue, on his own, and by coming on here, for what ever reason, he is screwing many of us who upgrade using the tactic that the OP used.
Most people upgrade using this method on domestic flights, however the OP seems to have lucked out and managed to get upgraded on and international itinerary ALL THE WAY OVER & BACK, and he got challenged. UA's system does have a glitch, but by coming on here and making a BIG deal out of it, he may have possibly screwed up something that was a good thing for everyone else.
LOOSE LIPS sink ships!
So before all the backyard attorneys get all teary eyed that "It Ain't Right" remember the OP is only being charged for a seat that he occupied. I know, I know, UA charged him an additional fee, after the fact, and he may win that argument, and in turn by blabbing on here, he just messed up what used to be a good thing!
NOT COOL!!!
Mar 18, 2015, 3:42 pm
#75
Moderator: United Airlines
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SFO
Programs: UA LT Plat 2MM, Hyatt Discoverist, Marriott Plat/LT Gold, Hilton Silver, IHG Plat
Posts: 66,933
Why the legal eagles can for the umpteen time re-debate this issue of intent and again come to the the same previous conclusion is they disagree,I think the following is a bigger issue for this community
This has been a well known, well publicized, much discussed loophole here on UA forum. Bloggers have highlighted this many times. All the way back to JFK-LAX-HNL-SFO-ORD-LGA MR upgrades using one e500.
UA has clearly known about this for a long time but it appears maybe they are now attempting to do something about it. That is the real headline for me.
....
Most people upgrade using this method on domestic flights, however the OP seems to have lucked out and managed to get upgraded on and international itinerary ALL THE WAY OVER & BACK, and he got challenged. UA's system does have a glitch, but by coming on here and making a BIG deal out of it, he may have possibly screwed up something that was a good thing for everyone else.....
Most people upgrade using this method on domestic flights, however the OP seems to have lucked out and managed to get upgraded on and international itinerary ALL THE WAY OVER & BACK, and he got challenged. UA's system does have a glitch, but by coming on here and making a BIG deal out of it, he may have possibly screwed up something that was a good thing for everyone else.....
UA has clearly known about this for a long time but it appears maybe they are now attempting to do something about it. That is the real headline for me.