Nov 7, 2015, 1:37 pm
Last edit by: WineCountryUA
DoT is proposing new IDB rules effective 21 April 2021
================================================== =
DoT's 14 CFR Part 250 - OVERSALES
DoT's WRITTEN EXPLANATION OF DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION AND BOARDING PRIORITIES
DoT's A Consumer Guide to Air Travel -- see Overbooking
UA's Contact of Carriage -- see RULE 25 DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION
IMPORTANT: Per the DOT reg linked above, IDB compensation only applies if the flight is oversold.
-- There must be a request for volunteers
-- The IDBed individual must be given a written explanation
-- Compensation must be in cash or check form unless passengers agrees to other method
-- Delay is to destination or first stopover (a deliberate interruption of a journey by the passenger, scheduled to exceed 4 hours)
Domestic Compensation
0 to 1 hour arrival delay ... No compensation
1 to 2 hour arrival delay ... 200% of one-way fare (but no more than $675)
Over 2 hours arrival delay ... 400% of one-way fare (but no more than $1,350)
International Compensation
0 to 1 hour arrival delay ... No compensation
1 to 4 hour arrival delay ... 200% of one-way fare (but no more than $675)
Over 4 hours arrival delay ... 400% of one-way fare (but no more than $1,350)
Exemptions
UA provided the following in its United Express Flight 3411 Review and Action Report
FAQS
As a cleared Standby passenger, am I protect / due compensation if IDB'ed?
Appears no
My DOT contact just replied with similar information. He's a recently retired DOT official who spent his career handling these types of issues and interacting with the public. He gave me permission to post his response.
================================================== =
DoT's 14 CFR Part 250 - OVERSALES
DoT's WRITTEN EXPLANATION OF DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION AND BOARDING PRIORITIES
DoT's A Consumer Guide to Air Travel -- see Overbooking
UA's Contact of Carriage -- see RULE 25 DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION
IMPORTANT: Per the DOT reg linked above, IDB compensation only applies if the flight is oversold.
-- There must be a request for volunteers
-- The IDBed individual must be given a written explanation
-- Compensation must be in cash or check form unless passengers agrees to other method
-- Delay is to destination or first stopover (a deliberate interruption of a journey by the passenger, scheduled to exceed 4 hours)
Domestic Compensation
0 to 1 hour arrival delay ... No compensation
1 to 2 hour arrival delay ... 200% of one-way fare (but no more than $675)
Over 2 hours arrival delay ... 400% of one-way fare (but no more than $1,350)
International Compensation
0 to 1 hour arrival delay ... No compensation
1 to 4 hour arrival delay ... 200% of one-way fare (but no more than $675)
Over 4 hours arrival delay ... 400% of one-way fare (but no more than $1,350)
If your ticket does not show a fare (for example, a frequent-flyer award ticket or a ticket issued by a consolidator), your denied boarding compensation is based on the lowest cash, check or credit card payment charged for a ticket in the same class of service (e.g., coach, first class) on that flight.
If you are denied boarding involuntarily, you are entitled to a payment of “denied boarding compensation” from the airline unless:
(1) you have not fully complied with the airline’s ticketing, check-in and reconfirmation requirements, or you are not acceptable for transportation under the airline’s usual rules and practices; or
(2) you are denied boarding because the flight is canceled; or
(3) you are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted for safety or operational reasons; or
(4) on a flight operated with an aircraft having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied boarding due to safety-related weight/balance restrictions that limit payload; or
(5) you are offered accommodations in a section of the aircraft other than specified in your ticket, at no extra charge (a passenger seated in a section for which a lower fare is charged must be given an appropriate refund); or
(6) the airline is able to place you on another flight or flights that are planned to reach your next stopover or final destination within one hour of the planned arrival time of your original flight.
(1) you have not fully complied with the airline’s ticketing, check-in and reconfirmation requirements, or you are not acceptable for transportation under the airline’s usual rules and practices; or
(2) you are denied boarding because the flight is canceled; or
(3) you are denied boarding because a smaller capacity aircraft was substituted for safety or operational reasons; or
(4) on a flight operated with an aircraft having 60 or fewer seats, you are denied boarding due to safety-related weight/balance restrictions that limit payload; or
(5) you are offered accommodations in a section of the aircraft other than specified in your ticket, at no extra charge (a passenger seated in a section for which a lower fare is charged must be given an appropriate refund); or
(6) the airline is able to place you on another flight or flights that are planned to reach your next stopover or final destination within one hour of the planned arrival time of your original flight.
Rule 25 Denied Boarding Compensation
A. Denied Boarding (U.S.A./Canadian Flight Origin) - When there is an Oversold UA flight that originates in the U.S.A. or Canada, the following provisions apply:1. Request for Volunteersa. UA will request Passengers who are willing to relinquish their confirmed reserved space in exchange for compensation in an amount determined by UA (including but not limited to check or an electronic travel certificate). The travel certificate will be valid only for travel on UA or designated Codeshare partners for one year from the date of issue and will have no refund value. If a Passenger is asked to volunteer, UA will not later deny boarding to that Passenger involuntarily unless that Passenger was informed at the time he was asked to volunteer that there was a possibility of being denied boarding involuntarily and of the amount of compensation to which he/she would have been entitled in that event. The request for volunteers and the selection of such person to be denied space will be in a manner determined solely by UA.
2. Boarding Priorities - If a flight is Oversold, no one may be denied boarding against his/her will until UA or other carrier personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservations willingly in exchange for compensation as determined by UA. If there are not enough volunteers, other Passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with UA’s boarding priority:a. Passengers who are Qualified Individuals with Disabilities, unaccompanied minors under the age of 18 years, or minors between the ages of 5 to 15 years who use the unaccompanied minor service, will be the last to be involuntarily denied boarding if it is determined by UA that such denial would constitute a hardship.
b. The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment.
3. Transportation for Passengers Denied Boarding - When UA is unable to provide previously confirmed space due to an Oversold flight, UA will provide transportation to such Passengers who have been denied boarding whether voluntarily or involuntarily in accordance with the provisions below.a. UA will transport the Passenger on its own flight to the Destination without Stopover on its next flight on which space is available at no additional cost to the Passenger, regardless of class of service.
b. If space is available on another Carrier’s flight regardless of class of service, such flights may be used upon United’s sole discretion and the Passenger’s request at no additional cost to the Passenger only if such flight provides an earlier arrival than the UA flight offered in 3) a) above.
4. Compensation for Passengers Denied Boarding Involuntarilya. For passengers traveling in interstate transportation between points within the United States, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 200% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination, with a maximum of 675 USD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than two hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than two hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 400% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination with a maximum of 1350 USD.
b. For passengers traveling from the United States to a foreign point, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight originating at a U.S. airport at the rate of 200% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination, with a maximum of 675 USD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 400% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination with a maximum of 1350 USD.
c. For passengers traveling from Canada to a foreign point, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight originating at a Canadian airport with a maximum of 200 CAD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight with a maximum of 300 CAD. At the passenger’s request, compensation in the form of check, wire transfer, visa card, or a travel voucher will be made by UA, and if accepted by the Passenger, the Passenger will provide a signed receipt to UA.
d. EXCEPTIONS: A Passenger denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight shall not be eligible for denied boarding compensation if:i. The flight is cancelled;
ii. The Passenger holding a Ticket for confirmed reserved space does not comply fully with the requirements in this Contract of Carriage Requirements regarding ticketing, check-in, reconfirmation procedures, and acceptance for transportation;
iii. The flight for which the Passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate the Passenger because of substitution of equipment of lesser capacity when required by operational or safety reasons or, on an aircraft with a designed passenger capacity of 60 or fewer seats, the flight for which the passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate that passenger due to weight/balance restrictions when required by operational or safety reasons;
iv. The Passenger is offered accommodations or is seated in a section of the aircraft other than that specified on his/her ticket at no extra charge. Provided, if a Passenger is seated in a section for which a lower fare applies, the Passenger will be entitled to a refund applicable to the difference in fares;
v. The Passenger is accommodated on Alternate Transportation at no extra cost, which at the time such arrangements are made, is planned to arrive at the airport of the Passenger’s next Stopover, (if any), or at the Destination, not later than 60 minutes after the planned arrival time of the flight on which the Passenger held confirmed reserved space;
vi. The Passenger is an employee of UA or of another Carrier or other person traveling without a confirmed reserved space; or
vii. The Passenger does not present him/herself at the loading gate for boarding at least 15 minutes prior to scheduled domestic departures, and 30 minutes prior to scheduled international departures. See Rule 5 D) for additional information regarding boarding cut-off times.
5. Payment Time and Form for Passengers Traveling Between Points within the United States or from the United States to a Foreign Pointa. Compensation in the form of check will be made by UA on the day and at the place where the failure to provide confirmed reserved space occurs, and if accepted by the Passenger, the Passenger will provide a signed receipt to UA. However, when UA has arranged, for the Passenger’s convenience, Alternate Transportation that departs before the compensation to the Passenger under this provision can be prepared and given to the Passenger, the compensation shall be sent by mail or other means to the Passenger within 24 hours thereafter.
b. UA may offer free or reduced rate air transportation in lieu of a check payment due under this Rule, if the value of the transportation credit offered is equal to or greater than the monetary compensation otherwise due and UA informs the Passenger of the amount and that the Passenger may decline the transportation benefit and receive the monetary compensation.
6. Limitation of Liability - If UA’s offer of compensation pursuant to the above provisions is accepted by the Passenger, such payment will constitute full compensation for all actual or anticipatory damages incurred or to be incurred by the Passenger as a result of UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space. If UA’s offer of compensation pursuant to the above provisions is not accepted, UA’s liability is limited to actual damages proved not to exceed 1350 USD per Ticketed Passenger as a result of UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space. Passenger will be responsible for providing documentation of all actual damages claimed. UA shall not be liable for any punitive, consequential or special damages arising out of or in connection with UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space.
B. Denied Boarding Non-U.S.A./Canada Flight Origin - Where there is an Oversold UA flight that originates outside the U.S.A. or Canada, no compensation will be provided except where required by local or international laws regulating Oversold flights.
A. Denied Boarding (U.S.A./Canadian Flight Origin) - When there is an Oversold UA flight that originates in the U.S.A. or Canada, the following provisions apply:1. Request for Volunteersa. UA will request Passengers who are willing to relinquish their confirmed reserved space in exchange for compensation in an amount determined by UA (including but not limited to check or an electronic travel certificate). The travel certificate will be valid only for travel on UA or designated Codeshare partners for one year from the date of issue and will have no refund value. If a Passenger is asked to volunteer, UA will not later deny boarding to that Passenger involuntarily unless that Passenger was informed at the time he was asked to volunteer that there was a possibility of being denied boarding involuntarily and of the amount of compensation to which he/she would have been entitled in that event. The request for volunteers and the selection of such person to be denied space will be in a manner determined solely by UA.
2. Boarding Priorities - If a flight is Oversold, no one may be denied boarding against his/her will until UA or other carrier personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservations willingly in exchange for compensation as determined by UA. If there are not enough volunteers, other Passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with UA’s boarding priority:a. Passengers who are Qualified Individuals with Disabilities, unaccompanied minors under the age of 18 years, or minors between the ages of 5 to 15 years who use the unaccompanied minor service, will be the last to be involuntarily denied boarding if it is determined by UA that such denial would constitute a hardship.
b. The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment.
3. Transportation for Passengers Denied Boarding - When UA is unable to provide previously confirmed space due to an Oversold flight, UA will provide transportation to such Passengers who have been denied boarding whether voluntarily or involuntarily in accordance with the provisions below.a. UA will transport the Passenger on its own flight to the Destination without Stopover on its next flight on which space is available at no additional cost to the Passenger, regardless of class of service.
b. If space is available on another Carrier’s flight regardless of class of service, such flights may be used upon United’s sole discretion and the Passenger’s request at no additional cost to the Passenger only if such flight provides an earlier arrival than the UA flight offered in 3) a) above.
4. Compensation for Passengers Denied Boarding Involuntarilya. For passengers traveling in interstate transportation between points within the United States, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 200% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination, with a maximum of 675 USD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than two hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than two hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 400% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination with a maximum of 1350 USD.
b. For passengers traveling from the United States to a foreign point, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight originating at a U.S. airport at the rate of 200% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination, with a maximum of 675 USD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight at the rate of 400% of the fare to the Passenger’s first Stopover or, if none, Destination with a maximum of 1350 USD.
c. For passengers traveling from Canada to a foreign point, subject to the EXCEPTIONS in section d) below, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight originating at a Canadian airport with a maximum of 200 CAD if UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than one hour but less than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight. If UA offers Alternate Transportation that, at the time the arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the Passenger’s Destination or first Stopover more than four hours after the planned arrival time of the Passenger’s original flight, UA shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight with a maximum of 300 CAD. At the passenger’s request, compensation in the form of check, wire transfer, visa card, or a travel voucher will be made by UA, and if accepted by the Passenger, the Passenger will provide a signed receipt to UA.
d. EXCEPTIONS: A Passenger denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold Flight shall not be eligible for denied boarding compensation if:i. The flight is cancelled;
ii. The Passenger holding a Ticket for confirmed reserved space does not comply fully with the requirements in this Contract of Carriage Requirements regarding ticketing, check-in, reconfirmation procedures, and acceptance for transportation;
iii. The flight for which the Passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate the Passenger because of substitution of equipment of lesser capacity when required by operational or safety reasons or, on an aircraft with a designed passenger capacity of 60 or fewer seats, the flight for which the passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate that passenger due to weight/balance restrictions when required by operational or safety reasons;
iv. The Passenger is offered accommodations or is seated in a section of the aircraft other than that specified on his/her ticket at no extra charge. Provided, if a Passenger is seated in a section for which a lower fare applies, the Passenger will be entitled to a refund applicable to the difference in fares;
v. The Passenger is accommodated on Alternate Transportation at no extra cost, which at the time such arrangements are made, is planned to arrive at the airport of the Passenger’s next Stopover, (if any), or at the Destination, not later than 60 minutes after the planned arrival time of the flight on which the Passenger held confirmed reserved space;
vi. The Passenger is an employee of UA or of another Carrier or other person traveling without a confirmed reserved space; or
vii. The Passenger does not present him/herself at the loading gate for boarding at least 15 minutes prior to scheduled domestic departures, and 30 minutes prior to scheduled international departures. See Rule 5 D) for additional information regarding boarding cut-off times.
5. Payment Time and Form for Passengers Traveling Between Points within the United States or from the United States to a Foreign Pointa. Compensation in the form of check will be made by UA on the day and at the place where the failure to provide confirmed reserved space occurs, and if accepted by the Passenger, the Passenger will provide a signed receipt to UA. However, when UA has arranged, for the Passenger’s convenience, Alternate Transportation that departs before the compensation to the Passenger under this provision can be prepared and given to the Passenger, the compensation shall be sent by mail or other means to the Passenger within 24 hours thereafter.
b. UA may offer free or reduced rate air transportation in lieu of a check payment due under this Rule, if the value of the transportation credit offered is equal to or greater than the monetary compensation otherwise due and UA informs the Passenger of the amount and that the Passenger may decline the transportation benefit and receive the monetary compensation.
6. Limitation of Liability - If UA’s offer of compensation pursuant to the above provisions is accepted by the Passenger, such payment will constitute full compensation for all actual or anticipatory damages incurred or to be incurred by the Passenger as a result of UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space. If UA’s offer of compensation pursuant to the above provisions is not accepted, UA’s liability is limited to actual damages proved not to exceed 1350 USD per Ticketed Passenger as a result of UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space. Passenger will be responsible for providing documentation of all actual damages claimed. UA shall not be liable for any punitive, consequential or special damages arising out of or in connection with UA’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space.
B. Denied Boarding Non-U.S.A./Canada Flight Origin - Where there is an Oversold UA flight that originates outside the U.S.A. or Canada, no compensation will be provided except where required by local or international laws regulating Oversold flights.
Involuntary Denied Boarding (IDB) Selection Process
United's involuntary denied boarding (IDB) process is automated and customers are not subject to discretionary choice by agents. This is our process:
United's involuntary denied boarding (IDB) process is automated and customers are not subject to discretionary choice by agents. This is our process:
- First, agents will deny boarding if a passenger does not have a seat assignment prior to boarding the aircraft.
- Customers are then sorted by fare class (estimated fare paid) and type of itinerary.
- Customers with the lowest paid fare are placed at the top of the list for involuntary denial of boarding.
- If a group of customers paid the same fare, then the group is sorted by time of check-in.
- Customers with frequent flyer status will not be involuntarily denied boarding, unless all of the remaining passengers have frequent flyer status, in which case the lowest status will move to the top of the IDB list.
- Customers with special needs (unaccompanied minors, passengers with disabilities) are excluded and are not involuntarily denied boarding.
As a cleared Standby passenger, am I protect / due compensation if IDB'ed?
Appears no
The DOT representative responded to me today and said that United's interpretation is correct. 14 CFR 250 only applies to confirmed reserved space, which does not cover standby passengers. So kudos to those here who knew!
It is an interesting interpretation because when I was given a BP, my reservation on the later flight was cancelled. So does that mean that technically at that moment I had no confirmed, reserved space on any flight? Maybe flying standby to leave early is riskier than I thought!
…
It is an interesting interpretation because when I was given a BP, my reservation on the later flight was cancelled. So does that mean that technically at that moment I had no confirmed, reserved space on any flight? Maybe flying standby to leave early is riskier than I thought!
…
Although Part 250 uses (and defines) the term “confirmed reserved space,” neither DOT, nor to my knowledge the industry, has distinguished between a reservation that is confirmed and one that is not. DOT has never acknowledged the existence of a reservation that is not confirmed. You either have a reservation or you don’t. In that sense, the word “confirmed” in the term “confirmed reserved space” (a term that goes back to the original Part 250 that was enacted fifty years ago) is redundant.
When a standby passenger is boarded – even with a seat assignment and boarding pass – this does not constitute issuing him/her confirmed reserved space. I see nothing in the definition of “confirmed reserved space” in section 250.1 that implies that clearing standby gives a passenger “confirmed reserved space.” When a flight is oversold, airlines make every effort to ensure that individuals who need to be bumped involuntarily will be denied boarding before they are boarded. That’s simply the easiest way for everyone – the airline and the passengers. But occasionally a standby passenger needs to be removed after having been boarded. That does not entitle that passenger to the protections of Part 250, as he/she never had a reservation.
Part 250 doesn’t say that passengers can’t be bumped after being boarded.
When a standby passenger is boarded – even with a seat assignment and boarding pass – this does not constitute issuing him/her confirmed reserved space. I see nothing in the definition of “confirmed reserved space” in section 250.1 that implies that clearing standby gives a passenger “confirmed reserved space.” When a flight is oversold, airlines make every effort to ensure that individuals who need to be bumped involuntarily will be denied boarding before they are boarded. That’s simply the easiest way for everyone – the airline and the passengers. But occasionally a standby passenger needs to be removed after having been boarded. That does not entitle that passenger to the protections of Part 250, as he/she never had a reservation.
Part 250 doesn’t say that passengers can’t be bumped after being boarded.
The changing story of IDB on UA since the merge and post-Dao
source: BTS Data
source: BTS Data
Code:
IDB/VDB data for UA 1st Qtr Year VDB IDB 2019 8,856 14 2018 8,214 27 2017 15,917 900 2016 14,380 929 2015 17,373 1,817 2014 21,469 4,395 2013 14,095 2,592
Is this IDB? Am I entitled to IDB compensation? [Consolidated]
Sep 23, 2017, 6:08 pm
#211
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BNA
Programs: HH Gold. (Former) UA PP, DL PM, PC Plat
Posts: 8,195
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/250.2a
I am attempting to get a more definitive reference that doesn't require interpretation.
Sep 23, 2017, 6:29 pm
#212
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: MSP
Programs: DL PM, MM, NR; HH Diamond, Bonvoy LT Gold, Hyatt Explorist, IHG Diamond, others
Posts: 12,159
Standby with a seat assignment is not the same as confirmed. Just as you can be confirmed without a seat assignment, you can have a seat assignment but not be confirmed. It is the status of the reservation that matters, not whether or not you have a seat assignment.
The definition you posted from the DOT includes, "and which the carrier or its agent has verified, by appropriate notation on the ticket or in any other manner provided therefore by the carrier, as being reserved for the accommodation of the passenger." That is not defining what qualifies as confirmed, it is saying that when it is a confirmed reservation it will be so indicated by the carrier.
The definition you posted from the DOT includes, "and which the carrier or its agent has verified, by appropriate notation on the ticket or in any other manner provided therefore by the carrier, as being reserved for the accommodation of the passenger." That is not defining what qualifies as confirmed, it is saying that when it is a confirmed reservation it will be so indicated by the carrier.
Nope, they did not ask for volunteers and #3 on the standby list stayed on the flight.
The fact that they're claiming to have violated their own published policies ought to be worth something.
Last edited by WineCountryUA; Sep 23, 2017 at 10:45 pm Reason: merging consecutive posts by same member
Sep 23, 2017, 6:57 pm
#213
Join Date: Mar 2015
Programs: Marriott Titanium, UA 1k, SW A-list
Posts: 38
Wow, this has raised quite the debate! Thank you all for your thoughts! I'll be interested to hear what the DOT representative thinks on Monday.
I did have a BP for the seat, if some were wondering. However, the gate agents took it when the other lady boarded to "compare" and I never got it back (they ripped it up after they asked me to leave). I do still have my checked bag tag, which says that my bag was gate checked, which they wouldn't have done if I didn't have a BP. Also, they didn't let me get my bag back, so it flew on the flight without me.
Just to recap, there are two issues in play here. First is whether this falls under 14 CFR and requires the 400% compensation, which seems questionable. The second is that this was a clear violation of United's new rule in the "Review and Action Report." The second point alone would seem to warrant compensation beyond a $150 voucher.... but it's United, so who knows!
I did have a BP for the seat, if some were wondering. However, the gate agents took it when the other lady boarded to "compare" and I never got it back (they ripped it up after they asked me to leave). I do still have my checked bag tag, which says that my bag was gate checked, which they wouldn't have done if I didn't have a BP. Also, they didn't let me get my bag back, so it flew on the flight without me.
Just to recap, there are two issues in play here. First is whether this falls under 14 CFR and requires the 400% compensation, which seems questionable. The second is that this was a clear violation of United's new rule in the "Review and Action Report." The second point alone would seem to warrant compensation beyond a $150 voucher.... but it's United, so who knows!
Sep 23, 2017, 10:49 pm
#214
Moderator: United Airlines
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SFO
Programs: UA Plat 1.997MM, Hyatt Discoverist, Marriott Plat/LT Gold, Hilton Silver, IHG Plat
Posts: 66,871
14 CFR 250.2a
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/250.2a
I am attempting to get a more definitive reference that doesn't require interpretation.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/250.2a
I am attempting to get a more definitive reference that doesn't require interpretation.
Sep 24, 2017, 2:38 pm
#215
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CLE, DCA, and 30k feet
Programs: Honors LT Diamond; United 1K; Hertz PC
Posts: 4,178
In layman's term, DOT does not care how you got the ticket and booked it. Instead, what DOT concerns if you have anything to prove that you are entitled a seat for that particular flight or not.
OP has cleared the flight. So OP has a BP that confirmed OP for the flight that OP was eventually bumped (OP's ticket has been updated as well). So OP indeed had a confirmed reserved space for IDB compensation purpose.
OP has cleared the flight. So OP has a BP that confirmed OP for the flight that OP was eventually bumped (OP's ticket has been updated as well). So OP indeed had a confirmed reserved space for IDB compensation purpose.
That said it's been a few months since I saw a PNR in SHARES and I'm not sure I've ever seen my PNR displayed when I've had a standby segment listed, so maybe it doesn't...
Sep 24, 2017, 3:10 pm
#216
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ZOA, SFO, HKG
Programs: UA 1K 0.9MM, Marriott Gold, HHonors Gold, Hertz PC, SBux Gold, TSA Pre✓
Posts: 13,811
And correct me if I'm wrong but a passenger who was waitlisted or standby who is cleared the segment on the reservation changes from NNx/RQx/WLx to HKx, right? In that case the passenger is holding confirmed with respect to the "and which the carrier or its agent has verified, by appropriate notation on the ticket or in any other manner provided therefore by the carrier, as being reserved for the accommodation of the passenger" provision of the CFR,
That said it's been a few months since I saw a PNR in SHARES and I'm not sure I've ever seen my PNR displayed when I've had a standby segment listed, so maybe it doesn't...
That said it's been a few months since I saw a PNR in SHARES and I'm not sure I've ever seen my PNR displayed when I've had a standby segment listed, so maybe it doesn't...
Sep 25, 2017, 7:18 am
#217
Join Date: Mar 2015
Programs: Marriott Titanium, UA 1k, SW A-list
Posts: 38
The DOT representative responded to me today and said that United's interpretation is correct. 14 CFR 250 only applies to confirmed reserved space, which does not cover standby passengers. So kudos to those here who knew!
It is an interesting interpretation because when I was given a BP, my reservation on the later flight was cancelled. So does that mean that technically at that moment I had no confirmed, reserved space on any flight? Maybe flying standby to leave early is riskier than I thought!
I will still follow-up with United regarding the violation of their standby priority and the violation of their new rule in the "Review and Action Plan."
Thanks again for everyone's help!
It is an interesting interpretation because when I was given a BP, my reservation on the later flight was cancelled. So does that mean that technically at that moment I had no confirmed, reserved space on any flight? Maybe flying standby to leave early is riskier than I thought!
I will still follow-up with United regarding the violation of their standby priority and the violation of their new rule in the "Review and Action Plan."
Thanks again for everyone's help!
Sep 25, 2017, 8:08 am
#218
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: PHX
Programs: AS 75K; UA 1MM; Hyatt Globalist; Marriott LTP; Hilton Diamond (Aspire)
Posts: 56,503
If you have a BP with a seat assignment, you have a "reserved space." But why am I not surprised DOT is yet again taking the airline's side against the customer? This is the "regulator" that declined to take any action over the Dao incident.
Sep 25, 2017, 8:20 am
#219
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BNA
Programs: HH Gold. (Former) UA PP, DL PM, PC Plat
Posts: 8,195
Although Part 250 uses (and defines) the term “confirmed reserved space,” neither DOT, nor to my knowledge the industry, has distinguished between a reservation that is confirmed and one that is not. DOT has never acknowledged the existence of a reservation that is not confirmed. You either have a reservation or you don’t. In that sense, the word “confirmed” in the term “confirmed reserved space” (a term that goes back to the original Part 250 that was enacted fifty years ago) is redundant.
When a standby passenger is boarded – even with a seat assignment and boarding pass – this does not constitute issuing him/her confirmed reserved space. I see nothing in the definition of “confirmed reserved space” in section 250.1 that implies that clearing standby gives a passenger “confirmed reserved space.” When a flight is oversold, airlines make every effort to ensure that individuals who need to be bumped involuntarily will be denied boarding before they are boarded. That’s simply the easiest way for everyone – the airline and the passengers. But occasionally a standby passenger needs to be removed after having been boarded. That does not entitle that passenger to the protections of Part 250, as he/she never had a reservation.
Part 250 doesn’t say that passengers can’t be bumped after being boarded.
When a standby passenger is boarded – even with a seat assignment and boarding pass – this does not constitute issuing him/her confirmed reserved space. I see nothing in the definition of “confirmed reserved space” in section 250.1 that implies that clearing standby gives a passenger “confirmed reserved space.” When a flight is oversold, airlines make every effort to ensure that individuals who need to be bumped involuntarily will be denied boarding before they are boarded. That’s simply the easiest way for everyone – the airline and the passengers. But occasionally a standby passenger needs to be removed after having been boarded. That does not entitle that passenger to the protections of Part 250, as he/she never had a reservation.
Part 250 doesn’t say that passengers can’t be bumped after being boarded.
Sep 25, 2017, 8:28 am
#220
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
This is nothing new. While people on FT love to argue about this, DOT has been solid on this since the IDB rule was first proposed and comments were considered. The US carriers adhere to it as well as it was the carriers which raised the concern to DOT when IDB was first considered.
Standby is always standby. You are not safe until after the aircraft has pushed and, even then, there are examples of standby's being bumped when the aircraft returns to the gate to pick up a "must fly".
If anyone wants this changed, it will take a rules change in the definition. The reasoning behind this is that there is a value to the system overall, which includes the other passengers on the aircraft, to clearing standbys in a business-efficient manner to that the aircraft can still close and then push on schedule.
Standby is always standby. You are not safe until after the aircraft has pushed and, even then, there are examples of standby's being bumped when the aircraft returns to the gate to pick up a "must fly".
If anyone wants this changed, it will take a rules change in the definition. The reasoning behind this is that there is a value to the system overall, which includes the other passengers on the aircraft, to clearing standbys in a business-efficient manner to that the aircraft can still close and then push on schedule.
Sep 26, 2017, 7:48 pm
#221
Join Date: Mar 2015
Programs: Marriott Titanium, UA 1k, SW A-list
Posts: 38
Just a quick follow-up, for those interested.
I replied to United saying that I understand that the event does not fall under 14 CFR protection, but that there appears to have been several violations of United policy during the event. The first is that they violated their standby priority procedure by removing me (#2 on the list), but allowing #3 standby to remain on the flight. The second is the violation of the "Review and Action Plan," that was discussed here previously.
I also brought up the fact that things could have ended up worse. Since I was given a BP for the flight, my reservation on the later flight was canceled. Once I was removed from the plane, I no longer had a "confirmed" ticket on any flight, which gave the gate agents a lot of trouble. They listed me as standby on the next flight, which fortunately cleared, but if it had not, I would have been stuck at IAH playing the standby game (and without my gate-checked luggage, which they didn't let me retrieve).
I also mentioned that I'd be happy to work with United to figure out why it happened (I have a suspicion the gate agents screwed up the BP list while trying to gate-check my bag).
United responded fairly quickly, but only to say that my message has been passed on to the Houston Station Manager. They still have not said anything about violating United's policies. Honestly, that's the main thing I'm looking for at this point. United heavily publicized their new rules following the Dao incident, so might as well hold them to it!
I replied to United saying that I understand that the event does not fall under 14 CFR protection, but that there appears to have been several violations of United policy during the event. The first is that they violated their standby priority procedure by removing me (#2 on the list), but allowing #3 standby to remain on the flight. The second is the violation of the "Review and Action Plan," that was discussed here previously.
I also brought up the fact that things could have ended up worse. Since I was given a BP for the flight, my reservation on the later flight was canceled. Once I was removed from the plane, I no longer had a "confirmed" ticket on any flight, which gave the gate agents a lot of trouble. They listed me as standby on the next flight, which fortunately cleared, but if it had not, I would have been stuck at IAH playing the standby game (and without my gate-checked luggage, which they didn't let me retrieve).
I also mentioned that I'd be happy to work with United to figure out why it happened (I have a suspicion the gate agents screwed up the BP list while trying to gate-check my bag).
United responded fairly quickly, but only to say that my message has been passed on to the Houston Station Manager. They still have not said anything about violating United's policies. Honestly, that's the main thing I'm looking for at this point. United heavily publicized their new rules following the Dao incident, so might as well hold them to it!
Sep 26, 2017, 7:57 pm
#222
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ZOA, SFO, HKG
Programs: UA 1K 0.9MM, Marriott Gold, HHonors Gold, Hertz PC, SBux Gold, TSA Pre✓
Posts: 13,811
Sadly I can't do anything in this case due to lack of standing.
Sep 26, 2017, 8:05 pm
#223
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: BNA
Programs: HH Gold. (Former) UA PP, DL PM, PC Plat
Posts: 8,195
I'm not an attorney, so perhaps there is a way, but how does an agency incorrectly interpret a regulation that it wrote?
Sep 26, 2017, 11:54 pm
#224
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ZOA, SFO, HKG
Programs: UA 1K 0.9MM, Marriott Gold, HHonors Gold, Hertz PC, SBux Gold, TSA Pre✓
Posts: 13,811
Because the official authority to interpret CFR is vested to the Office of Hearing, not the agency making the rules.
In this instant case, the issue is on the definition of "confirmed reserved space" in nexus to rev standby (DOT's own definition of Zero fare ticket has excluded all non-rev standby), especially on "by appropriate notation on the ticket or in any other manner provided therefore by the carrier".
So what does DOT mean "appropriate notation on the ticket"? When UA confirms a rev standby, the pax's reservation will be re-synced to reflect the new confirmed flight. Does such constitute "appropriate notation on the ticket"?
Also, how about "in any other manner provided therefore by the carrier"? Is having a BP sufficient enough?
When there is nothing written on the above issues (i.e. new CFRs or ALJ decisions), DOT's interpretation is not authoritative.
Because OP has been impacted by the agency's decision, OP is entitled for a hearing. To the rest of us, since we are not impacted, there is nothing the DOT can redress.
Sep 27, 2017, 11:37 am
#225
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: ORD
Programs: United Plat 2MM, Hilton Gold
Posts: 2,727
This isn't your exact scenario, but it's close.