mgcsinc

No. No no no. The jury doesn't get to invent the elements of a tort, or decide what parties must show to get damages. What a bizarre misimpression of how civil cases work.

We have law. It specifies who needs to show what in order to get what. The judge or jury in an individual case doesn't make any of the sorts of on-the-fly decisions that you're taking about.

LaserSailor

As a matter of law, I don't think I have to have actual damages to sue to stop another's action in civil court, do I?

Sorry for asking for free legal advice, Ill buy you a lottery ticket with sold miles to compensate you...

787fan

Agreed. That's why ITA Matrix wasn't named in the lawsuit this time.

BearX220

If anyone's interested, there is already a 1,000+ post thread on the ethics, risks, etc. of hidden-city ticketing in the TravelBuzz forum.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...-vs-497-a.html

It is most notable for the dozens of unsuccessful analogies (some mine) in both the pro and con arguments: Coke doesn't sue you for only drinking half your soda, etc.

mgcsinc

The answer to pretty much any underspecified hypothetical legal question is "it depends."

By lotto ticket, I'm assuming you mean a GPU...

ITA doesn't do anything resembling what this website was doing. It is also a service provider to the airlines. Of course it wasn't sued.

bocastephen

Yes, the jury does get to decide which party prevails in a civil suit brought before them - I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. If the plaintiff does not show where or how they are damaged, or by how much, do you honestly expect a jury to rule in their favor and award damages someone pulled out of their behind?

Unless UA and Orbitz can show how the activity specific to this website caused them actual damage, there is no real substance to this lawsuit except speculation. There is no smoking gun on the website that specifically describes hidden city ticketing, coaches people on how to do it, or provides any such reference. Most travelers looking at the site would be clueless what the results (only a few of which meet the hidden city ticket test) are describing, and the savvy travelers that can figure it out, already know they are in violation of the CoC, which makes the issue between the airline and the passenger.

The only legitimate claim here is with Orbitz, essentially being dragged into this activity without its knowledge via that booking link. If Orbitz received debit memos from UA or other carriers for the hidden city ticket infractions, it could show actual damages and have a valid claim.

There is no outright or concise action taken by this website to induce a person to knowingly violate the CoC, and the only issue I see in this case is the booking link, something added out of stupidity or greed. I will take a wild guess this website was put together by some unshowered nerd hiding in his mother's basement buried under pizza boxes and empty Cheetos bags.

Section 107

The public safety claim is a stretch if not laughable. It is mentioned 3 times in the complaint but never addressed except to say that airlines "must comply with numerous air traffic and public safety regulations such as those established by the FAA snd TSA."

mgcsinc

Under this vision of how trials work, which bears almost no resemblance to reality, the lawyers just get up one day in front of a jury and present an assortment of evidence about wrongs and rights, and then the jury decides who the good guy is. In the words of the lady from that insurance commercial: "That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works."

A lawsuit is made up of allegations called claims. Each claim has a set of specific legal elements that need to be proved up. The law and the judge, not the jury, decide what the elements of a claim are. The judge provides the jury with instructions detailing the elements of each claim. In a civil jury trial, the jury may be given a specific series of questions to answer rather than coming to an ultimate verdict; this helps guide then through the elements of the claims.

gnetwerker

While I have a life, and thus have not thoroughly reviewed the complaint, the principle claims are for "federal unfair competition, tortious interference with contract, breach of contract, and common law misappropriation". This is a mix of tort law and contract law.

A civil tort, definitionally, is about damage (harm, liability). The damages may or may not be monetary, they may be reputational, emotional, they may be to person or property, they may result from violations of privacy or other rights, or they may be damages likely to occur that have not yet occurred. But a tort is always about damages.

Breach of contract is a different branch of the law, and is another "civil wrong". While there may be monetary remedies, the usual request is enforcement of the contract. There need not be damages in order to request enforcement.

But that's not what you asked. You asked about "stop[ping] another's action[s]". That would be an injunction (or injunctive relief). An injunction is a form of non-monetary remedy that can result from a tort case, a breach of contract case, or other (e.g. criminal) case, and provides a remedy other than a financial one. It is a solution, and not a cause of action, and requires either a preliminary or final finding of fact on the part of a judge.

All of this is somewhat moot. If the defendant doesn't have several millions of dollars to defend itself, this case will settle long, long before it appears before a jury.

Without regard to the correctness or lack thereof of the plaintiff's position, I expect SkipLagged.com to fold like a cheap suit.

garykung

Read the complaint, especially the exhibits.

Thanks. I did read the complaint before posting but unfortunately I have no way to host the complaint.

Do you have anyway to host the exhibits as well, as they tell a better story?

Not necessary. It depends on how you plead.

The Ginsburg case merely affirms that common law claims are preempted. If you can find a way to bypass this (such as wire fraud for example), you still have a case.

The Supreme Court did question why some of the causes have not been appealed.

mherdeg

Sure, I mean, anyone can open a PACER account to read federal court cases -- super easy.

I try not to pull 100s of pages at a time & skipped the exhibits because at $0.10/page it's easy to go past the $15/quarter that you get for free, and then I gotta watch out for the bill and remember to pay it.

garykung

I have a PACER account. So I read the exhibits already as well.

It is just for the benefits for other FTers.

Volga981

I was on one several years ago. It went something like AOO-JST-IAD.

However, I have not encountered any continuation at hubs or large cities.

LaserSailor

Thanks for that, that is exactly where I was going. It's obvious that one should be able to ask for relief from an action for potential damages as opposed to actual.

BangkokTraveler

The case you cited, although interesting (Northwest taking action because the guy has excessive late baggage claims) has nothing to do with the Tchiowa's assertion that UA has taken away miles for hidden ticketing and courts have upheld it.