halls120

Just another example of management fail.

DENviaLAX

The interesting thing is that they keep in sourcing work to mainline UA employees at DEN. Everything above wing was just recently taken over from Skywest, and as of last week there was more news about potential takeover of part of the below the wing work from Skywest. To me that wouldn't necessarily seem to indicate the desire to move away from DEN if they're continually investing more in their own employees there.

Though at the same time, the continuous increase in RJs is part of the reason why they saw the need to in source the work, as Skywest couldn't handle the increased workload and was failing miserably in a lot of areas. And now having more capable employees to handle the increased UAX load may give them an excuse to keep down gauging to RJs. But who really knows.

T/BE20/G

They have the option of commuting, but not positive space. In addition to the basic premise that it is the employee's responsibility to get to work, no matter where (s)he chooses to live, positive space transportation from home to base would have huge tax implications for the employees.

Likewise, the pmuA FAs probably don't really understand why the pmCO FAs wouldn't want something resembling the UA contract. Given that one has higher pay, and the other better work rules, they probably have similar overall costs to the company; it makes sense, though, that each employee group would be comfortable with the trade-off that they are already accustomed to. The prevailing mindset at pmUA that led to a lower paying, better work-rules contract would not want to give up quality of life for better pay, while the prevailing mindset at pmCO that led to their contract would not want to give up their pay for hugher QoL.

channa

They do get some positive space passes for after the relocation, but it's limited, and only for a limited time.



Also the UA contract provides 100% company paid medical, while the CO contract requires employees to pay a share.

I talked to a crossover FA who told me that he has to work more to clear the same net as he did under UA, because of the health care premium, and despite the higher wage. His take was you have the potential to earn more on the CO contract, but only if you work a lot more.

As for the cost to the company, they're pushing hard for a CO-style contract, so it's pretty clear the UA contract is costly. Since benefits like medical are fixed cost per employee, the company wants to extract more work out of each employee to spread those costs around. Kind of like how in other roles, paying a premium for overtime can be cheaper than hiring additional staff. Yes, you pay more per hour, but the fixed cost benefits and associated fixed fees per employee are not needed.

The lower the wages, the higher the percent that fixed cost benefits.

Ber2dca

Realistically speaking..what kind of stunt would the airline have to pull to get rid of these unionized FAs and start with a clean slate? Anything short of bankruptcy? Founding a new airline flying a flag of convenience and outsourcing domestic flights to them? What could the gameplan be here?

DENviaLAX

There are bad apples at every workplace. While yes, without the union it'd make getting rid of them much simpler. At the same time I can pretty much guarantee you that without the unions, the customer experience from the employees would be quite a bit worse. Think of all the outsourcing that has taken place at smaller stations and the impact that has had. Now imagine it on a larger scale, across all work groups, at all stations. The airline industry is not a place for Wal-Mart style work conditions.

tom911

They'd have to get the employees vote to decertify the union. Here's how it's done:

http://www.nrtw.org/decertification-election

Think UA management can get 50% of their union flight attendants to go along with this? Probably as likely as my being struck by lightning this afternoon.

3Cforme

A bankruptcy judge can modify terms of employment but not end union representation of the work group. Tom911 outlines the next step.

Your fantasy of UA with non-union FAs is just that - a fantasy.

Ber2dca

I think if we're honest what has given FAs on American airlines such a bad reputation in comparison with Asian - but even European - airlines is the whole idea that FA is a career you grow old in and you buy a house in some city and all that stuff. FA is supposed to be a gig you do in your 20s and then you move on to something else. It's a low ceiling job without much of an advancement path - so you get these differentiations via seniority and resulting "perks" and you also get hardened, disillusioned staff.

It's a highly competitive service industry but the workforce has the vibe of the NY Department of Public Works or something like that. I don't know how UA or any other U.S. airline can offer competitive service here when they have to worry about their low-level service staff buying houses that keep them from transferring somewhere else.

starflyer

I was dedicated to the pre-CO UA. I would go out of my way to fly them (pay more, less desirable times). I can put up with a little bit of grief, but now we have:
1. Greatly devalued frequent flyer program.
2. TOD upgraded over elites.
3. Too many regional jets.
4. Lousy schedules/jets into competitor hubs.
5. Employee attitude.

Smisek gave me all those reasons to take my business elsewhere, so I have, despite being a UA million miler.

relangford

I feel for the FAs at DEN, but .... I don't think I have had any job in the past 50 years (yes, 5-0) or so where I was not required to relocate every 2 to 5 years. It comes with today's work environment.

SunLover

Typically it is the union hierarchy who creates the bureaucratic blueprint that perpetuates the negotiation gridlock. The rank and file union members ultimately become collateral damage and tangent to the situation.

Said another way: some people’s rice bowls is being filled by continuing this issue ad nauseam.


SunLover

Homer15

Obviously UA doesn't worry about it, but I hardly think that's the source of their problems. Lots of times older FAs give better service (vs. say the 20-something a while back who changed his shirt while standing in the business class aisle). And FWIW I don't like it when I fly an airline with only young flight attendants who will be forced out of their jobs in a few years.

Ber2dca

I don't think you should per se force people out of it based on age - keep those around with a genuine enthusiasm for the job even after 10+ years in the job. I think without the unions there would be a natural recycling of staff, unions promote tenure hence they promote longevity in jobs where longevity is not the greatest idea.

If you worked as a FA for 20 odd years in the same setting I can imagine that the smiles get a little tougher, that you may be more prone to "outbursts", little power trips and so forth. I've known "lifers" in these sorts of jobs and they were either "born to do it" type people or unsettling people who give a "broken" vibe. I don't know what good a system does that keeps the latter hanging around.

DENviaLAX

Why is being a flight attendant "supposed" to only be a temporary job you do in your 20s? Sure the heavy travel, always on the road lifestyle may be better suited for a younger, single person without any strong roots set somewhere or the responsibility of a family to take care of. But I still don't see why it supposedly shouldn't be a career oriented job. In my experience the majority of the people who enter the airline industry in most capacities tend to fall in love with it. Even the ones who aren't always happy with their employer still generally love what they do.

And in that sense I don't understand the constant need to "advance" within your career, as far as changing positions and getting promotions go. Regarding UA, any employee that has been there awhile is making a minimum of 50k a year, along with very good benefits. To me that is enough to live comfortably on, and if they love what they do, why would they want to leave and do something else?


Btw this isn't just affecting FAs solely at the DEN base. They're reshuffling FA numbers at all of the hub bases to even out sUA and sCO totals.