Supima

Steve M

They sold the miles for cash, which is a clearly prohibited transaction, and then donated the proceeds. Also, what UA cares about is not so much that the member converted some miles to cash, but that the purchased instruments are used by others to create a black market for premium cabin travel that a) is sold at far less than UA would charge, and b) where that reduced price doesn't even go to UA. Imagine an "open season" scenario where people could sell awards at will, and people could purchase and fly them, with no possible repercussions for any party. Far fewer people would purchase premium cabin travel from UA when they could get the identical product for far less in the mileage resale market. That's why UA and every other carrier gets so uptight about this sort of thing. For me, I far prefer the US carrier's solution to this (i.e. harsh enforcement) than what some overseas carriers do: limit award travel by other than the member to family members only.

adambrau

I give my miles to my less fortunate friends and family so they can go home for holidays or funerals or whatever. I have the same 4 or 5 people's profile saved on United.com for years now - just so I can book them a ticket. Every time this thread comes up I do worry some, but A) I have never sold or received renumeration - I just followed the rules: and B) I have never tried to sell any certs or miles earned on places like Ebay or Craigslist, or indeed anywhere else. I am not sure when I became aware of this big no no, but I'm guessing when I was a true youngster and I got any communication from any airline (before the internet) I read the rules through and through. Not everyone can be an AvGeek but I do feel badly for the most recent victim - it seems UA might have given them a probationary period or something rather than the lifetime ban and all miles confiscated. So I suppose that this thread keeping going is at least worthwhile as a potential reminder to the innocent/ignorant to not end up in this situation.

On a separate note, I wonder who I would move to if it happened to me. I'm guessing AA as at least they have good partners in one world. Many of the Skymiles partners might have good service on board, but even the stronger ones aren't the best - except maybe KLM. Virgin is struggling, AF is struggling, and if I have IRROPS at ICN I suspect I would not fare as well as I do with UA or their partners. The airlines have been weak for so long - now that the US3 are strongly entrenched and making bank, I hope people take notice that to AA/DL/UA losing a good passenger of many years who is caught cheating - HQ knows they will be replaced by someone else!

EMan

I find this argument questionable.
I.e. If an FF earns a GPU, he/she can:
1. Gift it to anyone on the planet without restriction or
2. Use it himself/herself or
3. Illegally sell/trade/barter it to someone else.
In all cases UA will lose the same amount of money.

What am I missing here?

If UA wanted to potentially save money, they could implement a rule whereby ONLY the FF who earns the GPU can use it.

sbrower

Here is what you are missing. If member gifts to "anyone on the planet" it probably won't be ME. So some lucky person (almost always a friend or a relative) will get to sit in a $12,000 seat which wan't previously full, so the marginal cost to UA will be less than $12,000. But if I (ME) want to go to Chna next week in First Class, and I know that I can buy a GPU on E-bay, then I won't buy a $12,000 seat and UA will actually lose a lot of revenue.

ani90

if we believe that then we will believe anything. I find this explanation very implausible. If OP was selling instruments for purpose of donating all proceeds to charity then he could have asked the ''buyer" to send whatever money to the charity. Or frankly he or she could just donate them to anyome who wants them. Indeed assuming the account is true then UA would have a much stronger case against OP as represents a carefully premeditated, planned and orchestrated abuse of the program rules. Who sells GPUs and keeps records of the proceeds?

EMan

I see your point...........But what if the Lucky Person was also going to buy the $12,000 seat?.........It's a wash.

Why does UA allow other people to use GPUs in the first place?..........If it potentially impacts their revenue.

One reason is a dark one: UA target their best customers (viz. 1K & GS) to see if they are selling or willing to sell their GPUs. They have caught many people doing this and have made (or saved) a lot of money by voiding all their GPUs and closing their MP accounts that could have contained 100's of 1000's of MP points..........We're talking $1000s per person. Customer Goodwill is not a consideration because they are doing something illegal.

BTW, I used to let my RPUs/GPUs expire if I couldn't use them.........Then (after learning of UA's business practice), I decided to make sure I gave them away..........Even to perfect strangers!

jsloan

UA isn't investing tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in fraud prevention in order to close down the accounts and make thousands of dollars in paper profits.

You're missing the big picture significantly. If upgrades were freely available, transferrable, and unlimited, the price would converge to the difference between Y and J, discounted by the chance of the upgrade clearing. If R space were available on any given route, UA may as well drop the fare to W+(cost of GPU on the open market), because they won't get any more than that.

Each limit UA puts on GPU transfers increases the spread between the market price and the lowest business class price, so it matters.

As for your argument about the lost revenue being the same -- it really, really isn't. For one thing, if GPUs are readily available on the free market, you're going to wind up with fewer 1Ks. 1K is designed to motivate people to spend more with UA, but why bother if you can buy the perks à la carte?

For another -- and this is something they don't talk about -- they understand that GPUs influence customer behavior. Since I've become 1K, I've taken international trips I wouldn't have taken otherwise, because I could justify the trip in W+GPU but not in J.

Finally, there's the breakage factor. Many upgrade instruments expire unused; many fewer would do so if they could be sold.

Most people don't bother, and UA knows this.

symphonicman

Smart point. And the larger cabins UA plans for also let them make sure not to leave money on the table by leaving behind someone willing to pay for a late booking to fly J, while also keeping elites happy. The world doesn't just revolve around us elite DYKWIAs

fatlasercat

So if UA really offers GPUs for sale on ebay (to catch potential buyers), that at the minimum violates eBay T&Cs. But offering something for sale that they don't intend to give. False advertising, fraud?
Has it been confirmed that UA employees actually do this?

bocastephen

I guess I missed something in the OP's statement - I thought the miles were donated directly to charity outside of UA's donation portal. If they were sold on Ebay or whatever to raise cash for a subsequent charitable donation, well that's different, and definitely a big no-no. The rules are pretty clear on this, nothing open to interpretation.

whereiswaldo

I cannot comment on selling/bartering/etc. - never done this and never will. Like others, I sponsor (a) family, and (b) co-workers. Sponsoring family is straightforward, and often on tickets I am on as well. Sponsoring co-workers is technically easy - all are listed in my profile to begin with. But none, understandably, are really familiar with UA rules/details. Which leads to the majority of sponsoring requests being ineligible - sub-W fare internationally, or "can you sponsor my mother-in-laws second husband's third cousin flying UAX in an all economy RJ 200". Mind you, I always lay out UA restrictions and clear rules (one of which is: only for a co-worker) but to little avail. As a result, between my wife and I, we will have more than 20 RPUs/GPUs expire this year. But rather this scenario than ever getting into trouble for what are in my view pretty clear and sensible rules by UA.

EMan

You and your wife should be receiving Birthday & Xmas presents from UA! ��

You do know you can give them away to Anyone On The Planet and NOT be breaking any Rules!? (I.e. Isn't there a charity you'd like to support?........Make-A-Wish Foundation for instance?)

porciuscato

Again, I don't have any way to know if this is United or someone else. Either way, there's something hugely fishy about these accounts. I can't believe anybody would fall for it. It's like buying something that "fell off the back of a truck."

jmcintosh