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Old Jan 5, 2014 | 1:03 am
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Failure to Notify and/or to Update Timely

Sorry for the long, unedited, and Faulkner-like post:

Last week, going from PDX to DCA via ORD departing at 1104pm. All day the day of the flight, I checked where flights were coming from to ensure planes were on time, analyzed weather, and everything looked great. All flights on time and no WX issues. Had I noticed an issue or had UA updated, would have SDC to SFO, for example, and avoided ORD with many other possibilities.

Turns out crew for my flight was coming from a IAD flight that would be 4+ hours late for my flight (7 hours late from original IAD flight). SO, UA knew that they had no crew to staff the PDX to ORD flight and never updated. In fact, I learned that GAs knew by 6pm local time (T-5h) that they had no crew for flight. Nothing was posted until 24 min before my flight was to leave, i.e., 1040pm.

We were told that we would get crew from another incoming flight (since IAD flight would not arrive until 3-4am and I suspect be timed out). Realizing I had an issue since I had to make a meeting in DCA, the reason for my trip, I immediately went to GA. She spent a lot of time with me (huge line behind me) and there were only good choices of bad options, even though my ORD flight was posted as delayed by 20min. I thought about aborting right there on the spot and figured I should at least try.

We were now scheduled to leave at 1230am. At 1140pm, I saw the crew and thought, this is doable. They came and left to the gate beside ours. I went up to a GA and asked if that last crew was my crew. She affirmed but said they needed to go through that different gate. That was a baldfaced lie.

Saw another set of crew. They came and left. Then around 1155pm, saw another crew that was escorted directly to my gate. From a distance, they all looked pissed and all immediately reached for cell phones as the pilot, who had been standing around for a while, watched. I actually stood up and went to podium thinking I would abort. For some reason, I thought again, I've made it this far, I should at least try. So I sat back down waiting to board.

That crew stood around for about 20-25min. We finally boarded and left at 1257am and I knew I needed a lengthier delay in ORD to make it. We arrived at 620. I knew I would miss my flight.

Sitting in F, I spoke with the FAs, and they were tired and upset yet friendly. They told me they weren't told until they arrived in PDX; they didn't want to do it. They confirmed that the PDX GAs had known by 6pm of the lack of crew. And they confirmed that there were two other crew that could have staffed the plane, that it would have been cheaper for UA to do that (not sure why), but for some reason, the others were turned away. My pilots, who were there, saw it all unfold and shared his perspectives.

Bottom line: I arrived in ORD and turned around and went back to PDX (and had excellent service both from CS in ORD and FA in F). Still, despite one of the better breakfasts I have ever had on UA, a comfortable A320 seat and a good pax sitting next to me, I have a bitter taste in my mouth since I could have SDC had UA updated when they learned of the lack of crew. Also, had the crew not spent 25 min waiting to board (wasn't their fault, but UAs), I would have made my flight in ORD. Missing my meeting was huge.

I've sounded off. Now, I'm curious to hear you sound off. Knowing this is FT, I suspect at least one or two (hundred!) will tell me it's my fault for flying through ORD in the winter time. Or flying UA at all...
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Old Jan 5, 2014 | 1:11 am
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Originally Posted by dcpdxtrans
.... tell me it's my fault for flying through ORD in the winter time. ....
plus when a weather waiver is in place --- you tempted the fates and fates got you.
You had a option and you chose to risk it (note you did not need to do SDC because the waiver gave you even better options)
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Old Jan 5, 2014 | 1:39 am
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Originally Posted by WineCountryUA
plus when a weather waiver is in place --- you tempted the fates and fates got you.
You had a option and you chose to risk it (note you did not need to do SDC because the waiver gave you even better options)
there were no weather issues at the time I was flying and my planes were coming from warm balmy places. In fact, my planes were all ready. It was a crew issue that was not disclosed until 24 min prior to departure time--that is the issue. Actually, at the time, the weather waiver did not apply to me and my flights.
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Old Jan 5, 2014 | 7:51 am
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Planes being ready doesn't mean you can leave. You need a plane and crew (and a few other things). Where is this aircraft coming from can help you see odds, but like relying on the seat map to judge loads of flights, its not too reliable. Aircraft can switch, crews come in from different places, weather can change quickly, crews can get sick, etc. Just as easily as the crew issue, the plane could have arrived with an MX. Where is this aircraft coming from can't predict that. Would you have been less upset if at T-24 minutes, there was an MX delay?

While they may have known about the scheduled crew coming in late, they do have reserve crews, or can stitch together crews from other places. So it could have been what you said - that they knew - or it could be rather than announcing a delay, ops were trying to get another crew together, which apparently, they did do. Unfortunately for you, it was too little, too late.

Because of the potential for delays, and not just UA, but whoever I am flying, I never, ever book to arrive just in time for a meeting or event, particularly if it is important to be there. I always give myself a few hours buffer between arrival and where I need to be somewhere. I've missed connections and had delays in the past for worse - and been forced to overnight.

I know its convenient to use the red eyes for a morning meeting out east, but your example shows the potential downfall. A single delay can screw things up - its a lesson learned the hard way. Next time, if the meeting is important - might think about flying in the night before. The extra expense of a hotel is probably worth it if the meeting is important.
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Old Jan 7, 2014 | 5:06 pm
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Originally Posted by emcampbe
Planes being ready doesn't mean you can leave. You need a plane and crew (and a few other things). Where is this aircraft coming from can help you see odds, but like relying on the seat map to judge loads of flights, its not too reliable. Aircraft can switch, crews come in from different places, weather can change quickly, crews can get sick, etc. Just as easily as the crew issue, the plane could have arrived with an MX. Where is this aircraft coming from can't predict that. Would you have been less upset if at T-24 minutes, there was an MX delay?

While they may have known about the scheduled crew coming in late, they do have reserve crews, or can stitch together crews from other places. So it could have been what you said - that they knew - or it could be rather than announcing a delay, ops were trying to get another crew together, which apparently, they did do. Unfortunately for you, it was too little, too late.

Because of the potential for delays, and not just UA, but whoever I am flying, I never, ever book to arrive just in time for a meeting or event, particularly if it is important to be there. I always give myself a few hours buffer between arrival and where I need to be somewhere. I've missed connections and had delays in the past for worse - and been forced to overnight.

I know its convenient to use the red eyes for a morning meeting out east, but your example shows the potential downfall. A single delay can screw things up - its a lesson learned the hard way. Next time, if the meeting is important - might think about flying in the night before. The extra expense of a hotel is probably worth it if the meeting is important.
all good points. I will say that the odds of MX tend to be low since IME and for the amount that I fly, I am amazed at the lack of MX issues I've encountered. Thus, I would be ok with MX if it happened. Also, I did have a couple of hours built in. What I did not factor was since it was right at the beginning of the new year, the schedule was somewhat thinned out. In any event, it's not the expense of a hotel that matters; it's the opportunity cost of not putting my children in bed.
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Old Jan 7, 2014 | 6:03 pm
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Originally Posted by dcpdxtrans
all good points. I will say that the odds of MX tend to be low since IME and for the amount that I fly, I am amazed at the lack of MX issues I've encountered. Thus, I would be ok with MX if it happened. Also, I did have a couple of hours built in. What I did not factor was since it was right at the beginning of the new year, the schedule was somewhat thinned out. In any event, it's not the expense of a hotel that matters; it's the opportunity cost of not putting my children in bed.
And the required rest guidelines, for at least pilots, changed on January 1st. It is a tough balance between work and family. And over prioritizing one can put the other in jeopardy.
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Old Jan 7, 2014 | 7:28 pm
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the OP isn't venting about the delay. the OP is venting about the lack of timely updates from UA which i empathize with him/her on. it's a huge issue that they need to get under wraps. there are many times (almost all the time) when it's abundantly clear a flight will not leave on time and .bomb, airport monitors, etc. all show it as on time.

it's ridiculous and needs to stop. honesty's the best policy is a saying for a reason. give the people the info and let them decide.

and none of this "crew/ac swaps happen all the time" bs that i know i will get in reply. happens at ORD/IAD/IAH/EWR. doesn't happen at PDX.
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Old Jan 9, 2014 | 12:09 am
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Originally Posted by PV_Premier
and none of this "crew/ac swaps happen all the time" bs that i know i will get in reply. happens at ORD/IAD/IAH/EWR. doesn't happen at PDX.
Except apparently, per the OP, this does happen, as the FAs working the flight weren't supposed to originally. Who knows when the flight would have left, if at all, if they didn't pull that crew.

Certainly more likely for an aircraft/crew to get swapped at a hub. But even at a non-hub, it can happen - the only specific reason I can think of where it would be impossible, aside from crew rest/work restrictions, is if the (regional) operating carrier/crew is different.
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