Why does UA need a UX?
Oct 29, 2013, 4:41 pm
#46
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: ORD
Programs: UA 1K 2006-2013
Posts: 334
I'd rather pay a bit more on my ticket and allow the pilots to make a good living. I know it's not that simple, but I don't view the mainline pilot salary as that far out of line for the experience they have, as well as their responsibility.
Getting tired of the growing gap between executive salary and worker salary.
Getting tired of the growing gap between executive salary and worker salary.
Oct 29, 2013, 4:51 pm
#47
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: NYC
Programs: AADULtArer
Posts: 5,693
Pilots are in what is commonly called a 'prestige profession'
UX crew are paid a lot less, because UX CAN. They can get candidates lined up to fly regionals, who are all hoping to accumulate flight hours to move up to mainline and both more bucks and better lifestyle.
Much like in medicine, the profession isn't limited by the number of people who can fly a 777, but by the work path to the hours necessary to get into the left seat. I got into a P* match with a pilot on here once when I asserted that they don't have skills beyond a large range of other professions, whatever.
Of course, if Im having a brain procedure, or my PIC is dropping a 777 into old HKG airport, Ill take the best, thank you.
UX crew are paid a lot less, because UX CAN. They can get candidates lined up to fly regionals, who are all hoping to accumulate flight hours to move up to mainline and both more bucks and better lifestyle.
Much like in medicine, the profession isn't limited by the number of people who can fly a 777, but by the work path to the hours necessary to get into the left seat. I got into a P* match with a pilot on here once when I asserted that they don't have skills beyond a large range of other professions, whatever.
Of course, if Im having a brain procedure, or my PIC is dropping a 777 into old HKG airport, Ill take the best, thank you.
Oct 29, 2013, 4:54 pm
#48
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 924
Originally Posted by johnmont:21690987
I'd rather pay a bit more on my ticket and allow the pilots to make a good living. I know it's not that simple, but I don't view the mainline pilot salary as that far out of line for the experience they have, as well as their responsibility.
Getting tired of the growing gap between executive salary and worker salary.
Getting tired of the growing gap between executive salary and worker salary.
Oct 29, 2013, 6:16 pm
#49
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: NYC
Programs: AADULtArer
Posts: 5,693
I'd rather pay a bit more on my ticket and allow the pilots to make a good living. I know it's not that simple, but I don't view the mainline pilot salary as that far out of line for the experience they have, as well as their responsibility.
Getting tired of the growing gap between executive salary and worker salary.
Getting tired of the growing gap between executive salary and worker salary.
1 I sat next to the FO the week before and talked shop
2 I lost a high school friend in the cabin
Oct 29, 2013, 8:16 pm
#50
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: FL 290 through FL390
Posts: 1,687
I agree with your first sentence, but the rest of this quote negates anything said in it. If the number of lives at stake was NOT the issue when it comes to earning a paycheck, then the crews flying the 747 would be perfectly happy to be paid just as much as those crews flying the A319, but that's certainly NOT the case. The number of seats on the plane has always been the bottom-line basis of pay negotiations throughtout the years, so why, then, is it such a tragedy then when the same thought process is applied to regionals? If you do the math, on a per-seat basis regional pilots are actually overpaid compared to their mainline bretheren.
I know that the market drives the paycheck, and we get paid what we negotiate, not what we're worth. Maybe the way I should have said it is that they're worth more in comparison to what they're paid than are mainline pilots.
Of course there is a difference between a small airplane and a large one. The big one generates more revenue, or more expense. They're both flown by people that can't screw up, though. I believe that express pilots are underpaid to a greater extent than mainline pilots in general.
And what are we worth? Depends, doesn't it? When we're cruising along with the autopilot on, 20 minutes before even the next waypoint, it's not a tough gig. But setting up for a CAT III approach in crappy weather, then landing on a short slimy runway with a max limit crosswind, it goes up. Or dealing with an situation that takes all that training and experience and puts it to the test, and the passenger never knows. And it goes up even more than that other times.
What's a doctor worth? Depends on if he or she playing golf on Wednesday, or prepping to remove a brain tumor from your kid's head. Same guy or gal either way. Perspective.
For me, what it gets down to in this discussion is that I think pilots (and everyone else) should be paid for their skill, knowledge, and expertise, not for what they're doing for you or not at any given moment. Some people see it that way, most don't.
FAB
Oct 29, 2013, 8:25 pm
#51
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Ewa Beach, Hawaii
Posts: 10,909
I probably should have left this as a stand-alone sentence then, so I'll say it again: The problem isn't that mainline pilots cost too much, it's that express pilots aren't paid enough.
I know that the market drives the paycheck, and we get paid what we negotiate, not what we're worth. Maybe the way I should have said it is that they're worth more in comparison to what they're paid than are mainline pilots.
Of course there is a difference between a small airplane and a large one. The big one generates more revenue, or more expense. They're both flown by people that can't screw up, though. I believe that express pilots are underpaid to a greater extent than mainline pilots in general.
And what are we worth? Depends, doesn't it? When we're cruising along with the autopilot on, 20 minutes before even the next waypoint, it's not a tough gig. But setting up for a CAT III approach in crappy weather, then landing on a short slimy runway with a max limit crosswind, it goes up. Or dealing with an situation that takes all that training and experience and puts it to the test, and the passenger never knows. And it goes up even more than that other times.
What's a doctor worth? Depends on if he or she playing golf on Wednesday, or prepping to remove a brain tumor from your kid's head. Same guy or gal either way. Perspective.
For me, what it gets down to in this discussion is that I think pilots (and everyone else) should be paid for their skill, knowledge, and expertise, not for what they're doing for you or not at any given moment. Some people see it that way, most don't.
FAB
I know that the market drives the paycheck, and we get paid what we negotiate, not what we're worth. Maybe the way I should have said it is that they're worth more in comparison to what they're paid than are mainline pilots.
Of course there is a difference between a small airplane and a large one. The big one generates more revenue, or more expense. They're both flown by people that can't screw up, though. I believe that express pilots are underpaid to a greater extent than mainline pilots in general.
And what are we worth? Depends, doesn't it? When we're cruising along with the autopilot on, 20 minutes before even the next waypoint, it's not a tough gig. But setting up for a CAT III approach in crappy weather, then landing on a short slimy runway with a max limit crosswind, it goes up. Or dealing with an situation that takes all that training and experience and puts it to the test, and the passenger never knows. And it goes up even more than that other times.
What's a doctor worth? Depends on if he or she playing golf on Wednesday, or prepping to remove a brain tumor from your kid's head. Same guy or gal either way. Perspective.
For me, what it gets down to in this discussion is that I think pilots (and everyone else) should be paid for their skill, knowledge, and expertise, not for what they're doing for you or not at any given moment. Some people see it that way, most don't.
FAB
Oct 29, 2013, 8:36 pm
#52
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: FL 290 through FL390
Posts: 1,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by freshairborne
I probably should have left this as a stand-alone sentence then, so I'll say it again: The problem isn't that mainline pilots cost too much, it's that express pilots aren't paid enough.
I know that the market drives the paycheck, and we get paid what we negotiate, not what we're worth. Maybe the way I should have said it is that they're worth more in comparison to what they're paid than are mainline pilots.
Of course there is a difference between a small airplane and a large one. The big one generates more revenue, or more expense. They're both flown by people that can't screw up, though. I believe that express pilots are underpaid to a greater extent than mainline pilots in general.
And what are we worth? Depends, doesn't it? When we're cruising along with the autopilot on, 20 minutes before even the next waypoint, it's not a tough gig. But setting up for a CAT III approach in crappy weather, then landing on a short slimy runway with a max limit crosswind, it goes up. Or dealing with an situation that takes all that training and experience and puts it to the test, and the passenger never knows. And it goes up even more than that other times.
What's a doctor worth? Depends on if he or she playing golf on Wednesday, or prepping to remove a brain tumor from your kid's head. Same guy or gal either way. Perspective.
For me, what it gets down to in this discussion is that I think pilots (and everyone else) should be paid for their skill, knowledge, and expertise, not for what they're doing for you or not at any given moment. Some people see it that way, most don't.
FAB
Capt. Sullenberger definitely earned his paycheck when he landed in the Hudson River.
Originally Posted by freshairborne
I probably should have left this as a stand-alone sentence then, so I'll say it again: The problem isn't that mainline pilots cost too much, it's that express pilots aren't paid enough.
I know that the market drives the paycheck, and we get paid what we negotiate, not what we're worth. Maybe the way I should have said it is that they're worth more in comparison to what they're paid than are mainline pilots.
Of course there is a difference between a small airplane and a large one. The big one generates more revenue, or more expense. They're both flown by people that can't screw up, though. I believe that express pilots are underpaid to a greater extent than mainline pilots in general.
And what are we worth? Depends, doesn't it? When we're cruising along with the autopilot on, 20 minutes before even the next waypoint, it's not a tough gig. But setting up for a CAT III approach in crappy weather, then landing on a short slimy runway with a max limit crosswind, it goes up. Or dealing with an situation that takes all that training and experience and puts it to the test, and the passenger never knows. And it goes up even more than that other times.
What's a doctor worth? Depends on if he or she playing golf on Wednesday, or prepping to remove a brain tumor from your kid's head. Same guy or gal either way. Perspective.
For me, what it gets down to in this discussion is that I think pilots (and everyone else) should be paid for their skill, knowledge, and expertise, not for what they're doing for you or not at any given moment. Some people see it that way, most don't.
FAB
Capt. Sullenberger definitely earned his paycheck when he landed in the Hudson River.
FAB
Oct 29, 2013, 8:39 pm
#53
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Ewa Beach, Hawaii
Posts: 10,909
Oct 29, 2013, 9:06 pm
#54
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
The market disagrees with you.
The market also says mainline pilots are paid too much, but federal law prevents mainline pilot wages from being set by the market.
Fact of the matter is there are a lot more people out there who dream of being pilots than there are pilot jobs available. That should normally mean relatively low wages for the job.
The market also says mainline pilots are paid too much, but federal law prevents mainline pilot wages from being set by the market.
Fact of the matter is there are a lot more people out there who dream of being pilots than there are pilot jobs available. That should normally mean relatively low wages for the job.
When the market dried up after 9/11 and the economic dump, United went into Bankruptcy and cut my pay by 45% and took away my pension, there was no federal law stopping that from happening. I got my first raise this year since 2002, name me another industry where employees go over a decade before a raise? So we're hardly overpaid, we still make less than Delta and the cargo carrier pilots. Once American/US Air do their contract and Delta does their new one next year, we'll be the lowest paid once again.
I dreamed of being a doctor, guess what that made me? A dreamer. Until I went to med school, residency, and all the other hoops you have to go through to be a doctor, I was not a doctor, nor was I qualified to talk about their wages and benefits. Until you spend the $200,000, get all your ratings and thousands of hours experience so you can maybe get a major airline job, it'll still be a dream for you. Pony up the dough, go get a job making $20k a year for the next 8-10 years and maybe you can come be a major airline pilot and help drive down the wages as you say. See you in 12-15 years.
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Last edited by aluminumdriver; Oct 29, 2013 at 9:25 pm
Oct 29, 2013, 9:22 pm
#55
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SLC
Programs: UA 1K, Hertz PC, Avis PC, Hilton Diamond, BW Diamond, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 212
An interesting thing about UX, and I wished I knew the numbers. When I did the UA tour a few weeks ago they told us there is obviously no cargo carried, but no mail either, which I guess can normally be a decent rev source. Also they said on a full flight, often all bags don't fit. I wonder what that costs to re-unite bags, assuming the pax flys to their destination and now a contractor has to deliver them. In markets where UX has say a 6x daily freq, wouldn't it be better to run 3 mainline and get cargo and mail rev, not to mention get the people the avoid RJ's at most costs, instead of the 6 RJ flts.
Oct 30, 2013, 8:47 am
#56
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: ATL/TLV/SDF
Programs: AA EXP, UA LT Ag, Marriott LT Ti, Hyatt Glob, Avis PC, Busted-Knuckles Club Grand Poobah.
Posts: 2,590
Regionals on a race to the bottom is not good for the industry, the employees, nor the pax. This will end badly.
Oct 30, 2013, 9:42 am
#57
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Programs: United 1K, Delta PM, Hilton Diamond, Starwood Gold, National Exec. Elite
Posts: 1,406
An interesting thing about UX, and I wished I knew the numbers. When I did the UA tour a few weeks ago they told us there is obviously no cargo carried, but no mail either, which I guess can normally be a decent rev source. Also they said on a full flight, often all bags don't fit. I wonder what that costs to re-unite bags, assuming the pax flys to their destination and now a contractor has to deliver them. In markets where UX has say a 6x daily freq, wouldn't it be better to run 3 mainline and get cargo and mail rev, not to mention get the people the avoid RJ's at most costs, instead of the 6 RJ flts.
Oct 30, 2013, 9:59 am
#58
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: LAX; AA EXP, MM; HH Gold
Posts: 31,789
An interesting thing about UX, and I wished I knew the numbers. When I did the UA tour a few weeks ago they told us there is obviously no cargo carried, but no mail either, which I guess can normally be a decent rev source. Also they said on a full flight, often all bags don't fit. I wonder what that costs to re-unite bags, assuming the pax flys to their destination and now a contractor has to deliver them. In markets where UX has say a 6x daily freq, wouldn't it be better to run 3 mainline and get cargo and mail rev, not to mention get the people the avoid RJ's at most costs, instead of the 6 RJ flts.
Actually, Delta has announced that its plan with its new 717s (the AirTran 717s that WN said it would keep but then changed its mind at huge expense) is that they will replace 50-seaters on a "capacity-neutral basis." I'm skeptical that actually happens, but maybe in some markets with 6-8-10 RJs a day, some 717s do replace pairs of RJ flights.
Thing is, business travelers generally value frequency over everything else, and flying a half-empty RJ is significantly cheaper than flying a half-empty mainline plane (trip costs).
Cargo? Mail? As I pointed out earlier, cargo and mail revenue is declining and in general, its importance is vastly over-stated, both by the online community and by big-talking airline employees. Passenger airlines are getting almost as much money from checked bag fees as cargo/mail revenue. And every pound of cargo/mail increases the fuel burn, and at $3/gal for jet fuel, the old but common nonsense about cargo revenue being pure profit is but an ignorant fantasy.
Oct 30, 2013, 11:38 am
#59
Join Date: Dec 2010
Programs: Whatever gets me there faster.
Posts: 746
Cargo? Mail? As I pointed out earlier, cargo and mail revenue is declining and in general, its importance is vastly over-stated, both by the online community and by big-talking airline employees. Passenger airlines are getting almost as much money from checked bag fees as cargo/mail revenue. And every pound of cargo/mail increases the fuel burn, and at $3/gal for jet fuel, the old but common nonsense about cargo revenue being pure profit is but an ignorant fantasy.
Regional aircraft are fully capable of carrying regular cargo, and did carry a lot of mail at one time; just not as much as mainine could because of cargo bin door size or bin capacity. Nowadays, though, due to regulations and security, it's usually just animals and SPDs.
Oct 30, 2013, 11:44 am
#60
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,123
Many carriers have stopped flying mail altogether due to the USPS's rules and regulations regarding its carriage, and the fines you got if they weren't followed to the T. Some carriers actually LOST money carrying mail. Sometimes, I found the postal inspectors more intrusive than the TSA ever was.
Regional aircraft are fully capable of carrying regular cargo, and did carry a lot of mail at one time; just not as much as mainine could because of cargo bin door size or bin capacity. Nowadays, though, due to regulations and security, it's usually just animals and SPDs.
Regional aircraft are fully capable of carrying regular cargo, and did carry a lot of mail at one time; just not as much as mainine could because of cargo bin door size or bin capacity. Nowadays, though, due to regulations and security, it's usually just animals and SPDs.
One only has to look at Fed Ex and UPS and their revenue production to know there IS money in cargo, and it makes sense for airlines to have those contracts and make money carrying cargo where they're going anyways. Regional jets have little room for cargo carrying since almost every bag is checked compared to the mainline aircraft.
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Last edited by aluminumdriver; Oct 30, 2013 at 12:17 pm