worldtrav

If UA only flew mainline airplanes they'd soon go the way of Pan Am....

RockinPete

Now this is funny.

I have made the trip across the boarder 10+ times in the past 2 years. There is still customs between the two countries and you still need a HK Visa if you hold a China passport.

I have China co-workers that were unable to go to HK with me for the weekend because their visa was denied.

Baze

Why is it funny? They are under Beijing control. And I did say they had some autonomy. They are just not classified as a city state any more as Singapore is.

Cannonball Run

UA should only be 1/2 as good as PA was international and UA would be great.

One of the MAJOR reason PA went under that the heavy debt imbalance with it's India operations. Money could not leave the country, nor did it have much worth in country.

As for Pan Am's domestic service - the LAX - JFK flights were wonderful, and the 727's flying on the east coast have some great memories and FA's attached to them. PJ you reading this? :-)

bcj1949

Going back to old stories, Charles Lindbergh was hired by Jaun Trippe in the 20's and worked for Pan Am for 45 years as a special consultant flying the new routes across the atlantic to map/test them. His final flight from NYC to Hawaii where he would then soon die from Lymphoma was on a specialized arranged United Air flight. Interesting old history.

worldtrav

They also bought the Heathrow slots but I still don't see the point to the thread, they are vastly different airlines then and today.

Aspen

Sometimes I'd be happier walking to B49 at DEN instead of B94 but luckily for me the flight to ASE is usually only 20-40 minutes

mike1968

I thought this thread was going to be about how the DOJ (or whoever) never would have allowed UA and PanAm to actually merge in the mid 1980s, but by 1991 they effectively did except the Old JFK terminal and the routes from JFK to continental Europe that Delta got. Otherwise Pan Am pacific, Latam and LHR hub+the onward authorities to Europe all became part of pmUA along with a good percentage of the flight and ground employees. someone from UA would have to comment on how many PA pilots, FAs and ground crew are still in the system..as many may be retir- ing/ed. If not mistaken, most of the LHR FAs were originally from PA and I know some of the MIA FAs were from PanAm as I remember talking to a few after asking in the 1990s.

Per somewhere upstream, UA did fly 747s domestic from MIA as part of the hub there. I took a few between ORD-MIA. I think they also went on to LAX and SFO. They also flew the 747SP with a main deck C cabin that was 2x2 on one side and the Galley on the other...similar to TG 747s. SP was a great 747 variant the way it was configured for the era.

LilAbner

Rupee's unable to be taken out of India would not be a MAJOR reason for a large company to go bust, as the airline would have simply stopped flying to that country if its assets were frozen there.

The causes of Pan Am's bankruptcy are many: their lack of internal US routes for most of their history, combined with the granting of international routes to other airlines who did have domestic routes is usually cited as the most important contributing factor. And of course, the solution to the internal route problem (purchasing National) was a financial disaster.

Pan Am also suffered from an enormous debt incurred in purchasing the B747 fleet, just when a recession was starting which meant the capacity was not really needed.

Pan Am also suffered from some inept managers after Juan Trippe retired: for example, Pan Am kept selling off its profitable assets and divisions (Intercontinental Hotels, the Pacific Division, the Pan Am Building, the IGS) instead of getting rid of the money-losers.

Pan Am also tended to operate on a lot of marginal routes just "because they were there".

After the 1988 Lockerbie bombing of Pan Am flight 103, many travelers avoided booking on Pan Am, and that was the "coup de grâce".

Therefore, comparing Pan Am ( of the past) to UAL (today) is a waste of time and effort.

RNE

I know, right!? I was just discussion the subject of preposterous claims while sipping Darseen tea with an Orovars friend of mine on the planet Mars. He exclaimed with all four arms raised that this sort of preposterousness has to stop!

RNE, concurring.

ClipperJon

Inept management as LilAbner cited above caused the most damage. Pan Am was also unfairly penalized wherever it flew: i.e. Pan Am paid far more in landing fees overseas than what int'l flag carriers had to pay to the U.S. govt. PA had to face formidable competition from govt. subsidized carriers as well as TWA (also gone) in some markets as well as Delta (to London? Who would have thought?), AA, etc. PA had a series of plane crashes in the early and mid-1970s which gave it bad PR, as did terrorism.

PA was our nation's unofficial flag carrier. My first flight was on a PA 707. Gracious flight attendants provided elegant, personalized service all the way to TYO from SFO. Fearing a small boy would be bored, one FA had me pass out menus to keep me occupied, aside from the coloring and picture books. F is better today due to more comfortable seating, but the attention to detail is long gone.

At the end, PA had very old planes which were seldom adequately clean. My last PA flight was a heart breaker (1989). The plane was dirty, surly flight attendants, and not the best first class cuisine and wine. Wait, maybe UA IS the new PA

LilAbner

..... and quit calling them Shirley!

LaserSailor

Nicely done, deadly serious. I have a note from Headqaurters...




Analogy time....

Pan Am is to UAL as Porsche is to Boxer..

tealeaf99

Based on management, then yes, UA is the new Pan Am. I wonder if this is foreshadowing for UA.

My first PA flight was also on a 707 - KIN-MIA.

My last PA flight was actually on what seemed like a fairly new A300 in 1987(?). The route was ORD-MIA.

I remember the PA MIA-LAX flights very well.

When UA took over the LHR flights and operations, I remember the former PA folks grumbling about how specific the UA job positions were. That is, a single UA position could not go above and beyond his/her specific job description to make a customer happy.

jlemon

Well, there is the fact that they really do not have a domestic market in either case, although Hong Kong is now part of the PRC, of course....

However, when Cathay began ops, Hong Kong was just an outpost of the old British empire with a small geographical area....and Singapore has always been a city state.

So is UA the old PA? I don't think so.....