A Modest Theory of Why Upgrades Became More Difficult to Obtain After the Merger
May 16, 2013, 10:03 am
#61
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Back to the topic of $$$ for nonstop vs. connecting...
Here is another perfect example
Now, some companies/individuals are welling to shell out almost $1K more just for the luxury of nonstop flight and sticking with UA. In those cases, it will be in an instant upgrade fare as it is the lowest possible fare in this scenario, which results in more YBM upgraders in the F cabin where a silver on B fare will be in front and 1K or GS on H fare will be in the back.
Here is another perfect example
Now, some companies/individuals are welling to shell out almost $1K more just for the luxury of nonstop flight and sticking with UA. In those cases, it will be in an instant upgrade fare as it is the lowest possible fare in this scenario, which results in more YBM upgraders in the F cabin where a silver on B fare will be in front and 1K or GS on H fare will be in the back.
Wasn't it always the case that we could do this with UA, before the CO takeover?
I distinctly recall many instances where I bought an expensive Y ticket and got an instant upgrade into F on domestic flights.
Maybe there are some differences in how it's been structured under CO (i.e. YBM auto clear into PN)? But, they still control PN space. And, before, didn't UA offer plentiful YUP and BUP and other kinds of -UP fares that had the same result?
I don't see how this is something new or how it's a relevant contributor to explaining why UG rates have plummeted for elites under the CO regime.
May 16, 2013, 11:03 am
#62
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In April 15 - May 15, 2010 (pre-merger), UA's SFO-ORD service was mostly not 767s. Other aircraft types outnumbered 767s more than 2:1.
May 16, 2013, 7:16 pm
#63
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May 16, 2013, 7:40 pm
#64
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I see the term MR used sometimes to describe someone who chooses to fly in less than the most direct route. I really don't think this a good use of the term. To me a MR is trip with no purpose other than to accumulate miles for a FFP. I've read enough on FT to know that this kind of MR exists, even if it is not very common.
It is very common, however, to take a less than direct route to desired destination. Some of this behavior is caused by FFP incentives, but lots of it is related to the pricing and schedules the airlines use. I often find myself going out of my way because it's cheaper or avoiding a direct flight because it is on equipment that I refuse to fly long distances. That does not make me a mileage runner.
It is very common, however, to take a less than direct route to desired destination. Some of this behavior is caused by FFP incentives, but lots of it is related to the pricing and schedules the airlines use. I often find myself going out of my way because it's cheaper or avoiding a direct flight because it is on equipment that I refuse to fly long distances. That does not make me a mileage runner.
1) They are generally $100-$300 more expensive than my IAH->EWR->YYZ routing
2) They only fly RJ145's and the occasional CRJ on the direct route. Its a 3.5 flight from IAH and over 4 hours for the return. Don't care to sit on either of those planes for that length of time.
May 17, 2013, 12:15 am
#65
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UA capacity SFO-ORD is flat - change of less than 50 seats/day now vs 3 years ago on a route with 2000+ seats a day. Frequency is up 20%.
In April 15 - May 15, 2010 (pre-merger), UA's SFO-ORD service was mostly not 767s. Other aircraft types outnumbered 767s more than 2:1.
In April 15 - May 15, 2010 (pre-merger), UA's SFO-ORD service was mostly not 767s. Other aircraft types outnumbered 767s more than 2:1.
David
May 17, 2013, 6:52 am
#66
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But sUA did have those discounted economy fares that books directly into F [A].
My argument here is not whether YBM is bad or not, all I am saying that on certain routes we are seeing an increase in YBM-UPs as it is the lowest possible fare, which leads to more elites booking those fare classes [that is the cheapest fare available] and upgrading instantly. If you read my other post in this thread, YBM-UPs is just one of the many reasons why CPUs are more challenging nowadays, I was just reinforcing my argument.
Quoting my original post in this thread:
As for upgrades, OP, you got one of many rationalizations/factors correct. There is also synergies which results in significantly less F capacity domestically. There are also MMers who gave status to spouse/significant other/family, which inflates the upgrade list. YBM policy. Buy ups. Monetization of F cabin [V/H/Q-UPs]. More paid F/C customers [in the past LH paid F/C customers flying from FRA to OKC could chose between connecting in ORD/DEN onto UA or in IAH onto CO, but now it is just UA which results in more of those customers being funneled through certain hubs]. And a bunch of other reasons.
Last edited by golfingboy; May 17, 2013 at 6:59 am
May 17, 2013, 7:13 am
#67
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I suppose the free F seats are going to those who deliver the most profit to UA. And I suppose the most profit is being delivered by YBM tickets, buy-ups, and credit cards. Not by loyal frequent flyers who buy the cheapest tickets week after week. Nevertheless, I'm getting a good share of free upgrades, so no complaints.
May 17, 2013, 8:09 am
#68
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I suppose the free F seats are going to those who deliver the most profit to UA. And I suppose the most profit is being delivered by YBM tickets, buy-ups, and credit cards. Not by loyal frequent flyers who buy the cheapest tickets week after week. Nevertheless, I'm getting a good share of free upgrades, so no complaints.
I suspect it is those flying on Monday Mornings/Sunday Evenings out of hubs and Thursdays/Friday Mornings to the hub are seeing their upgrade rates hammered the most.
May 17, 2013, 8:31 am
#69
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Due to the nature of my work, I typically fly off-peak (e.g., Wednesday 11am out of SFO, returning Saturday afternoon or Sunday morning). And I normally get upgraded as a 1K on advance purchase economy fares.
But recently I've been flying hub-to-hub Monday morning out of DEN then returning Thursday night, and I'm not even coming close to getting upgraded.
I do think that prime business travel routes & times have gotten more difficult to upgrade, but I personally don't have enough of a sample size to be sure.
May 17, 2013, 8:41 am
#70
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I have found that routes and dates/times which used to be complete slam-dunks for UDU are now a challenge; for example, a 6am Saturday or Sunday flight hub-to-hub used to clear at the window almost without fail. Now, I don't expect it to do so. I'm even missing Tuesday evening & Wednesday morning flights.
There's more to it than just travel patterns.
May 17, 2013, 2:16 pm
#71
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Following up on exerda's point.
Yes, I realize that upgrade rates can change even holding travel plans constant. And I think they've gotten worse post 3/3.
But it's still important to control for route/day/time (which is exactly what exerda has done ^ )
Yes, I realize that upgrade rates can change even holding travel plans constant. And I think they've gotten worse post 3/3.
But it's still important to control for route/day/time (which is exactly what exerda has done ^ )
May 17, 2013, 3:18 pm
#72
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,645
Nope, with sUA they did not give Y-UPs or B/M-UPs when they had UDUs.
But sUA did have those discounted economy fares that books directly into F [A].
My argument here is not whether YBM is bad or not, all I am saying that on certain routes we are seeing an increase in YBM-UPs as it is the lowest possible fare, which leads to more elites booking those fare classes [that is the cheapest fare available] and upgrading instantly. If you read my other post in this thread, YBM-UPs is just one of the many reasons why CPUs are more challenging nowadays, I was just reinforcing my argument.
Quoting my original post in this thread:
As for upgrades, OP, you got one of many rationalizations/factors correct. There is also synergies which results in significantly less F capacity domestically. There are also MMers who gave status to spouse/significant other/family, which inflates the upgrade list. YBM policy. Buy ups. Monetization of F cabin [V/H/Q-UPs]. More paid F/C customers [in the past LH paid F/C customers flying from FRA to OKC could chose between connecting in ORD/DEN onto UA or in IAH onto CO, but now it is just UA which results in more of those customers being funneled through certain hubs]. And a bunch of other reasons.
But sUA did have those discounted economy fares that books directly into F [A].
My argument here is not whether YBM is bad or not, all I am saying that on certain routes we are seeing an increase in YBM-UPs as it is the lowest possible fare, which leads to more elites booking those fare classes [that is the cheapest fare available] and upgrading instantly. If you read my other post in this thread, YBM-UPs is just one of the many reasons why CPUs are more challenging nowadays, I was just reinforcing my argument.
Quoting my original post in this thread:
As for upgrades, OP, you got one of many rationalizations/factors correct. There is also synergies which results in significantly less F capacity domestically. There are also MMers who gave status to spouse/significant other/family, which inflates the upgrade list. YBM policy. Buy ups. Monetization of F cabin [V/H/Q-UPs]. More paid F/C customers [in the past LH paid F/C customers flying from FRA to OKC could chose between connecting in ORD/DEN onto UA or in IAH onto CO, but now it is just UA which results in more of those customers being funneled through certain hubs]. And a bunch of other reasons.
Whether you call it a YUP or you call it a "Y fare that books into F" - it's the same thing. And, now we have cheap P and Z fares.
The overall concept is that there are cheap ways to buy into F at time of booking without paying normal F fares and those prices are often 50% or more off the normal F fare.
We can talk until the end of time about what words we use to describe this concept, but the concept is not new.
May 18, 2013, 12:22 pm
#73
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As far as I'm concerned, this distinction is pedantic and not relevant.
Whether you call it a YUP or you call it a "Y fare that books into F" - it's the same thing. And, now we have cheap P and Z fares.
The overall concept is that there are cheap ways to buy into F at time of booking without paying normal F fares and those prices are often 50% or more off the normal F fare.
We can talk until the end of time about what words we use to describe this concept, but the concept is not new.
Whether you call it a YUP or you call it a "Y fare that books into F" - it's the same thing. And, now we have cheap P and Z fares.
The overall concept is that there are cheap ways to buy into F at time of booking without paying normal F fares and those prices are often 50% or more off the normal F fare.
We can talk until the end of time about what words we use to describe this concept, but the concept is not new.
I could be wrong, but I do not think it was that common on sUA where the YUP was cheaper than the lowest Y fare several weeks out unlike now where many nonstops are an automatic $800+ B or M fare no matter how far out you book your ticket.
May 18, 2013, 2:02 pm
#74
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,645
Yeah... Keep in mind, there is indeed one difference... Those [vast majority] corporate/client contract/workplace policies where it is Y only could not book those sUA discounted F fares [as they are still classified as F fare with an underlying Y basis]. Now, those customers can book a proper Y fare and manually upgrade themselves after the reservation tickets. Good way to confirm in F instantly without violating the corporate Y only fare policy.
I could be wrong, but I do not think it was that common on sUA where the YUP was cheaper than the lowest Y fare several weeks out unlike now where many nonstops are an automatic $800+ B or M fare no matter how far out you book your ticket.
I could be wrong, but I do not think it was that common on sUA where the YUP was cheaper than the lowest Y fare several weeks out unlike now where many nonstops are an automatic $800+ B or M fare no matter how far out you book your ticket.