Another "enhancement" for Govt Flyers
Oct 31, 2012, 10:12 am
#46
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+1 - Whatever UA's problems, it's not with IAD-SFO. On my last flight out, the DYKWIA GS berating the GA was told that there were 17 GS ahead of him with F0. The difference on that route are -UP fares which include even a Silver on YCA. While the GS beats the -UP fares at the gate, if the -UP was an instant UG, the seat is gone by the time the GS window arrives.
Oct 31, 2012, 10:55 am
#47
Join Date: Sep 2006
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"Stealing upgrades"?? UA has made a business decision to allow YCA fares the instant upgrade -just like they cut preferential deals with many of their private sector corporate customers (my employer included). No one is "stealing" anything here. Don't like the practice? Take it up with Jeff. But this type of hyperbole isn't helping your case a bit. And you do realize that government employees pay taxes too, right?
Oct 31, 2012, 11:01 am
#48
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Washington, D.C.
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FWIW, I work in a government department that does a decent amount of international travel. Obviously having status for those flights is particularly nice, whether E+, lounge access, or better chances at upgrades (paid for with miles). UA had most of the routes in FY12, so we have a few Golds and Plats. FY13? Delta has the routes, so they're all back in the back of the plane now. I doubt they're happy, but that's life with the government.
Oct 31, 2012, 11:23 am
#49
Join Date: May 2009
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Setting aside the city pair issue, since we are no longer required to use the contract carrier - United's pricing is just strange. Given tight federal travel budgets, what traveler is going to take a $521 non-refundable (available on UA.com) connecting fare out of IAD when AA offers a $411 refundable connecting fare out of DCA? My office is in downtown DC. Do I schlep out to IAD and pay $100 more, or enjoy the convenience of DCA? UA can't really believe that IAD is a better experience than DCA, can they?
The government travel program is not designed to instill loyalty by fliers, it is designed to reduce travel costs for taxpayers.
Oct 31, 2012, 11:26 am
#50
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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Back to my point though, the non-loyal flyer (kayaker), shouldn't care here right? It's the loyal UA flyer than really is being burned by this policy.
I'm ignoring the taxpayer aspect because, while I care about that, I don't want to dig into that mess. I'd rather talk airline stuff here not politics or judge people on that.
I'm ignoring the taxpayer aspect because, while I care about that, I don't want to dig into that mess. I'd rather talk airline stuff here not politics or judge people on that.
But they can't be government fliers, unless the government fliers are ignoring their duty to take the cheapest flights.
Oct 31, 2012, 11:40 am
#51
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,187
I cannot more disdain this attitude. No traveller has a right to an upgrade unless s/he pays for it. UA cannot steal upgrades from an elite traveller because they are not the property of the elite traveller. If UA can find a sucker who is willing to pay cash for a seat upfront which would otherwise be given away to an elite owing to lack of demand for F/C seats then that is what they should do. Its called capitalism. Getting what the market will bear. If UA can find someone to pay $0.02 for an upgrade to a seat upfront, they should grab that two cents quickly rather than give it to an elite - myself included. Clearly the seat wasn't worth two cents to us -- if it were then we would be the ones paying the TOD.
Oct 31, 2012, 12:35 pm
#52
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This represents a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of how upgrades are actually processed by UA. Upgrades are officially prioritized in the following order:
JN - Premiers on Y fares (confirmable at booking)
PN - Global Services on any fare (confirmable at 120 hours - CPU)
PN - 1K on B fares (confirmable at booking)
PN - 1K on M fares (confirmable at booking)
PN - Premiers on B fares (confirmable at booking)
R - Instrument-supported upgrades in order of status and fare (confirmable at booking)
R - Premiers in order of status and fare (confirmable at CPU windows).
The order of PN might be slightly wrong, but that is of little consequence.
JN is last-seat inventory in premium cabins, so any Premier on a Y fare can take the last F seat. The flight can go from F1 to F0 on a YCA fare. Though you say that " 1K, Platinum, Gold would have theoretically been upgraded" three ays out (and you are mistaken on the Golds-- they are 48 hours since 3/3), the key word in your post is "theoretically".
In reality, upgrades are not regularly clearing at windows except on really open flights, even when there is published R space. So you end up with an upgrade list that contains everyone that hasn't cleared into R yet, or hasn't cleared a CPU. At three days out, that list can easily contain 1K and Premier Platinum members whose upgrades didn't clear at their windows (Golds are at 48 hours). But a Premier booking a YCA fare at 70 hours out will book right into JN from Y, bypassing everyone on the list for PN, R and CPUs. This means that at the airport, person #1 on the upgrade standby list when the flight departs (which could be a 1K on an H fare) would have gotten the upgrade but for the Premier Silver YCA traveler who confirmed right into JN instead of waiting in the CPU line with everyone else.
YCA pax are certainly displacing passengers who would have gotten a CPU but for a YCA Premier. In other words, the notion that somehow YCA travelers don't displace 1K and Premier Platinum CPU'ers because their windows are before YCA fares can ticket is based on theory, not reality. This doesn't mean government employees are "stealing" upgrades, just that they are getting them ahead of virtually everyone else.
And it is the rare case that one will find F0 three days out, so upgrades on YCA fares are almost a sure thing for Premiers except on very crowded F routes. The people unlikely to be displaced are those who book into PN because PN is usually JN minus 1, so YCA Premiers can really only 'displace' a single PN traveler on any given flight. Maybe 2 passengers if PN is tracking to JN minus 2 on a given flight.
Again, I'm not passing judgement on the wisdom of these rules, just pointing out that YCA travelers are at a huge upgrade advantage.
JN - Premiers on Y fares (confirmable at booking)
PN - Global Services on any fare (confirmable at 120 hours - CPU)
PN - 1K on B fares (confirmable at booking)
PN - 1K on M fares (confirmable at booking)
PN - Premiers on B fares (confirmable at booking)
R - Instrument-supported upgrades in order of status and fare (confirmable at booking)
R - Premiers in order of status and fare (confirmable at CPU windows).
The order of PN might be slightly wrong, but that is of little consequence.
JN is last-seat inventory in premium cabins, so any Premier on a Y fare can take the last F seat. The flight can go from F1 to F0 on a YCA fare. Though you say that " 1K, Platinum, Gold would have theoretically been upgraded" three ays out (and you are mistaken on the Golds-- they are 48 hours since 3/3), the key word in your post is "theoretically".
In reality, upgrades are not regularly clearing at windows except on really open flights, even when there is published R space. So you end up with an upgrade list that contains everyone that hasn't cleared into R yet, or hasn't cleared a CPU. At three days out, that list can easily contain 1K and Premier Platinum members whose upgrades didn't clear at their windows (Golds are at 48 hours). But a Premier booking a YCA fare at 70 hours out will book right into JN from Y, bypassing everyone on the list for PN, R and CPUs. This means that at the airport, person #1 on the upgrade standby list when the flight departs (which could be a 1K on an H fare) would have gotten the upgrade but for the Premier Silver YCA traveler who confirmed right into JN instead of waiting in the CPU line with everyone else.
YCA pax are certainly displacing passengers who would have gotten a CPU but for a YCA Premier. In other words, the notion that somehow YCA travelers don't displace 1K and Premier Platinum CPU'ers because their windows are before YCA fares can ticket is based on theory, not reality. This doesn't mean government employees are "stealing" upgrades, just that they are getting them ahead of virtually everyone else.
And it is the rare case that one will find F0 three days out, so upgrades on YCA fares are almost a sure thing for Premiers except on very crowded F routes. The people unlikely to be displaced are those who book into PN because PN is usually JN minus 1, so YCA Premiers can really only 'displace' a single PN traveler on any given flight. Maybe 2 passengers if PN is tracking to JN minus 2 on a given flight.
Again, I'm not passing judgement on the wisdom of these rules, just pointing out that YCA travelers are at a huge upgrade advantage.
There's also the fact that YCA is a last resort fare and should not be booked unless _CA is not available. They can't be booked just because govie flyer X wants a YCA fare. If a TCA is available, the govie gets the TCA. Period. Thus there are going to be a lot less YCAs out there than people think. They way people act on FT here, every single govie out of IAD or DCA is on a Y fare and stealing upgrades. While it does happen in some cases, it's not going to happen in most cases. It sure makes for a convenient scapegoat and ignores the TODs and other monetary screw jobs UA uses on upgrades.
And BTW, I haven't been a govie flyer since 2005. I know how the system works though.
Oct 31, 2012, 12:38 pm
#53
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The thing most people miss is that the reservations are not ticketed until 3 days out, unless there's a darn good reason to do it. A govie flyer can be sitting on a YCA reservation but it won't be upgraded until it's actually ticketed. So that YCA isn't taking any F inventory until it's ticketed. By then any GS, Plat, or 1K flyer will have been upgraded.
There's also the fact that YCA is a last resort fare and should not be booked unless _CA is not available. They can't be booked just because govie flyer X wants a YCA fare. If a TCA is available, the govie gets the TCA. Period. Thus there are going to be a lot less YCAs out there than people think. They way people act on FT here, every single govie out of IAD or DCA is on a Y fare and stealing upgrades. While it does happen in some cases, it's not going to happen in most cases. It sure makes for a convenient scapegoat and ignores the TODs and other monetary screw jobs UA uses on upgrades.
And BTW, I haven't been a govie flyer since 2005. I know how the system works though.
There's also the fact that YCA is a last resort fare and should not be booked unless _CA is not available. They can't be booked just because govie flyer X wants a YCA fare. If a TCA is available, the govie gets the TCA. Period. Thus there are going to be a lot less YCAs out there than people think. They way people act on FT here, every single govie out of IAD or DCA is on a Y fare and stealing upgrades. While it does happen in some cases, it's not going to happen in most cases. It sure makes for a convenient scapegoat and ignores the TODs and other monetary screw jobs UA uses on upgrades.
And BTW, I haven't been a govie flyer since 2005. I know how the system works though.
Oct 31, 2012, 12:51 pm
#54
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The thing most people miss is that the reservations are not ticketed until 3 days out, unless there's a darn good reason to do it. A govie flyer can be sitting on a YCA reservation but it won't be upgraded until it's actually ticketed. So that YCA isn't taking any F inventory until it's ticketed. By then any GS, Plat, or 1K flyer will have been upgraded.
The government has gotten a lot better at forcing govie flyers to fly on CA fares, but there are some people who purposefully will find a reason why they need YCA fares. Small number, but it exists.
Oct 31, 2012, 1:26 pm
#55
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Edited to add: From the GSA website:
n many City Pairs, there are two contract fares, also known as Dual Fares: a highly discounted unrestricted fare (YCA), and a capacity controlled fare (_CA) with an even deeper discount.
_CA fares have a limited number of seats, but no other restrictions. _CA seat availability on a particular flight varies carrier-by-carrier and market-by-market.
The _CA airfares allow an agency to save the most money possible, while still enjoying the same top quality service available with YCA fares.
_CA fares have a limited number of seats, but no other restrictions. _CA seat availability on a particular flight varies carrier-by-carrier and market-by-market.
The _CA airfares allow an agency to save the most money possible, while still enjoying the same top quality service available with YCA fares.
It goes on to point out the only reason to use a YCA fare when _CA is available is if plans are uncertain *and* the rebooking fee from the travel agent is greater than the savings.
Last edited by drewguy; Oct 31, 2012 at 2:39 pm
Oct 31, 2012, 1:55 pm
#57
Join Date: Jan 2011
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I kid, I kid..(though that's a real life example)
More seriously, I'm being a bit provocative here because while I don't think government employees should travel in E- all the time, I have a big problem with the airlines offering special government employee upgrades unavailable to the general tax-paying public.
The correct thing for government procurement officials to do in this case would be to request an additional fare discount in lieu of the sweetheart upgrade deal. That saves the taxpayer money and puts government employees on an equal footing with other citizens.
Oct 31, 2012, 2:00 pm
#58
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Why would the airlines do this? The upgrades don't cost them anything -- specially if it's just a question of pax hardworkingcivilservant moving up vs. pax someoneelse -- while a discount would cost money. The contract fares, in general, are an awesome deal for taxpayers.
Oct 31, 2012, 2:36 pm
#59
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In other words, like many companies, the airlines are offering a product (a fully refundable ticket with the possibility of an upgrade) at different prices to different customers.
(And, by the way, government travelers are in E- unless they have status sufficient to get E+ or are willing to pay for it themselves.)
Oct 31, 2012, 2:58 pm
#60
Join Date: Apr 2012
Programs: UA 1K, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 113
This topic comes up all the time and people think everyone is getting over. Has anyone here asked some of the larger corp people they know what their discount is on fares for Y and even C. I know some are anywhere from 30-40% and wouldn't be surprised if some got even more. So my friends fly Y for cheap and get the Y ups at booking. If you are a GS with your own money and not your companies then you can complain. Really we are complaining about spending our companies money and not getting something for free they pay for.