Hm. So even a GM on an award ticket can trump a 1k for upgrade
Dec 28, 2011, 12:25 pm
#151
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 456
As a Plat, I have been offered upsell upgrades at check-in several times, and, in many cases, I have taken them. Some recent examples: EWR-MCO for $109, ATL-IAH (on a frankenflight) for $59, and IAH-SJC for $129. My fare class on the flights varied (i.e., I believe the EWR-MCO was an "S" while the ATL-IAH was an "E"). For EWR-MCO, I was able to decline the offer, check in and see that I was #7 on the upgrade list with 4 seats, un-check in, and then take the offer. I realize that I am one person with these experiences, but I am an elite and was made these offers, so I don't think it is accurate to say that they are made ONLY to GMs.
Personally, I always decline and take my chances with the upgrade "lottery", but the option to pay for the upgrades was offered.
Dec 28, 2011, 2:54 pm
#152
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: aurora, colo, usa
Posts: 44
No surprise here
I am not bragging or complaining or threatening to take all my business to Air (fill in name of country) but I am surprised that this protocol is coming as such a surprise to so many folks. I am not a buy up and over flyer. I like most elites normally watch as NC0 never changes and I end up taking my exit row seat! This practice has been in effect for several years. Just stand around the GA's as they process the flight, chat at the club bar, BRIEFLY talk frequent flying with your seat neighbor.I don't want to get kicked out of MP by my next comment BUT all United has to do is check their own flight processing info. It seems really bizarre to ask one of us to PM an example of this happening.
Dec 28, 2011, 3:53 pm
#153
Join Date: May 2009
Location: PHL
Posts: 2,842
The issue is pretty much always at OLCI on CO. Most often well before OLCI, you can buy-up to a B fare (M for Plats) to get your auto-UG, and it's at the legit published fare difference - I have no issue with that, not sure how anyone can. That follows the published rules.
The problem is that when they drop the buy-up to something much less than the published difference - that's where you see the TOD references come in (originally denied by a cadre of FTers, but not much anymore due to the continued evidence presented)...a $400 differential magically turning into $59-$99. And of course the offer seems to be even more attractive for GMs.
Really hoping The Powers That Be will address this. If it's an error, please fix it, as it's been going on for over a year now. If this is now the way it's going to be going forward, please make it known officially, so a flood of elites & high value flyers can take their business elsewhere.
The problem is that when they drop the buy-up to something much less than the published difference - that's where you see the TOD references come in (originally denied by a cadre of FTers, but not much anymore due to the continued evidence presented)...a $400 differential magically turning into $59-$99. And of course the offer seems to be even more attractive for GMs.
Really hoping The Powers That Be will address this. If it's an error, please fix it, as it's been going on for over a year now. If this is now the way it's going to be going forward, please make it known officially, so a flood of elites & high value flyers can take their business elsewhere.
Dec 28, 2011, 5:00 pm
#154
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bay Area, CA
Programs: UA Plat 2MM; AS MVP Gold 75K
Posts: 35,068
You're assuming this is an easy task and they have visibility into this.
Remember that CO's architecture is distributed across multiple systems, which handle different parts, all assuming the other systems are working correctly.
They would have to coordinate reports from multiple systems in order to watch something like this (e.g., flights where Elites were not upgraded and buy-up upgrades were offered and/or sold).
I'd like to add one thing to this that irks me as well. COInsider initially told us that the only time Joe Schmo's should receive these buy up offers is when the number of F seats remaining was greater than the number of remaining elites not yet upgraded on the flight. However numerous examples have shown that this policy does not seem to be followed and they'll offer a buy up whenever they see fit.
I don't think we should infer intent here (yet).
It's very possible that CO's systems are so messy and their version control and QA testing are so poor that this type of bug crops up a couple times a year and it's an honest, yet careless, mistake they continue to repeat.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that's likely what's happening as inferred by Shannon's comment about things not working the way they should.
Last edited by iluv2fly; Dec 28, 2011 at 11:12 pm Reason: merge
Dec 28, 2011, 5:27 pm
#155
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Danville, CA, USA;
Programs: UA 1MM, WN CP, Marriott LT Plat, Hilton Gold, IC Plat
Posts: 15,722
Ok I think I now get how this works (or rather doesn't work). 
Just purchased tickets on UA to travel SFO-IAD-SFO in 2 months. Outbound has 27/34 F seats open and return has 12/12 open. Waitlisted for CR1 on both flights. 
Yes I realize open seats do not preclude unassigned F customers but nonetheless a good indicator of space as was the relatively low competitive fare.
Really what is the point of handing out SWUs and CR1s if your customers can't use them to confirm instant upgrades at time of purchase on empty flights?
Just purchased tickets on UA to travel SFO-IAD-SFO in 2 months. Outbound has 27/34 F seats open and return has 12/12 open. Waitlisted for CR1 on both flights. Yes I realize open seats do not preclude unassigned F customers but nonetheless a good indicator of space as was the relatively low competitive fare. Really what is the point of handing out SWUs and CR1s if your customers can't use them to confirm instant upgrades at time of purchase on empty flights?
Dec 28, 2011, 5:30 pm
#156
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near SEA
Programs: UA MM, AS MVPG75K, Marriott Lifetime Gold
Posts: 7,969
Ok I think I now get how this works (or rather doesn't work). Just purchased tickets on UA to travel SFO-IAD-SFO in 2 months. Outbound has 27/34 F seats open and return has 12/12 open. Waitlisted for CR1 on both flights. Yes I realize open seats do not preclude unassigned F customers but nonetheless a good indicator of space as was the relatively low competitive fare.
Really what is the point of handing out SWUs and CR1s if your customers can't use them to confirm instant upgrades at time of purchase on empty flights?
Just purchased tickets on UA to travel SFO-IAD-SFO in 2 months. Outbound has 27/34 F seats open and return has 12/12 open. Waitlisted for CR1 on both flights. Yes I realize open seats do not preclude unassigned F customers but nonetheless a good indicator of space as was the relatively low competitive fare. Really what is the point of handing out SWUs and CR1s if your customers can't use them to confirm instant upgrades at time of purchase on empty flights?
Dec 28, 2011, 5:36 pm
#157
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SRQ-NYC-DCA
Programs: OnePass Infinite CO MM, PC Charter Lifer SkyMiles GM, MileagePlus
Posts: 1,826
Dec 28, 2011, 5:44 pm
#158
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Danville, CA, USA;
Programs: UA 1MM, WN CP, Marriott LT Plat, Hilton Gold, IC Plat
Posts: 15,722
Dec 28, 2011, 5:45 pm
#159
Join Date: May 2009
Location: PHL
Posts: 2,842
I don't think we should infer intent here (yet).
It's very possible that CO's systems are so messy and their version control and QA testing are so poor that this type of bug crops up a couple times a year and it's an honest, yet careless, mistake they continue to repeat.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that's likely what's happening as inferred by Shannon's comment about things not working the way they should.
It's very possible that CO's systems are so messy and their version control and QA testing are so poor that this type of bug crops up a couple times a year and it's an honest, yet careless, mistake they continue to repeat.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that's likely what's happening as inferred by Shannon's comment about things not working the way they should.
Dec 28, 2011, 5:46 pm
#160
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near SEA
Programs: UA MM, AS MVPG75K, Marriott Lifetime Gold
Posts: 7,969
Dec 28, 2011, 6:19 pm
#161
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bay Area, CA
Programs: UA Plat 2MM; AS MVP Gold 75K
Posts: 35,068
Alright you talked me off the ledge. Although I approached this issue the same as you just described back when we started to hear about these buy ups. And now a year later it does not appear that the potential bug or issues have been fixed. I work in the software implementation field and to me this is at least a Sev 2 defect. If CO's systems and testing are really that poor or if they casually ignore the defect because it results in some extra cash then I have serious concerns moving forward.
LOL...the problem has been fixed. And then they broke it again. And then they fixed it, and broke it and fixed it and broke it and so on.
It crops up a couple times a year for a few weeks to a few months at a time.
I wouldn't even go so far as to say they casually ignore the defect. I think they don't have a handle on their systems and don't realize the impact one thing does on the other, and as such they're not monitoring/reporting/QAing/etc. appropriately.
Everything CO seems to build is a band-aid on top of band-aid, so that now they're stuck with this kludge of things that perform tasks that other airlines seem to handle in a much more straightforward manner.
I don't even think there's anything wrong with their buy-up logic. I think the buy-up logic assumes EUA is working properly, and for whatever reason if EUA isn't working right, it sees a bunch of upgrade inventory and starts to sell it cheap, causing this unwanted side-effect.
So if EUA is missing people because of a new booking class ththan ey added but forgot to code, or it gets stuck on more out of sync tickets they're used seeing because of their merger partner handling ticket issues differently, or some new tier they're not recognizing correctly, or whatnot, then there's extra upgrade inventory, that the upsell system sees it and tries to do what it's programmed to do -- sell it.
Heck, a couple years ago, they even began running EUA each time someone checks in, so that's supposed to resolve this issue and allocate any remaining upgrade inventory before upgrades are sold. But of course, that assumes as well that EUA is working properly.
I don't think it's not some evil, deceptive plan by Smisek. It's a change management nightmare they simply don't have a handle on.
But I see your point -- to see this repeatedly, with no visibility into the system (by us or the agents), it sure does look like a conspiracy theory is in order.
Dec 28, 2011, 6:30 pm
#162
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near SEA
Programs: UA MM, AS MVPG75K, Marriott Lifetime Gold
Posts: 7,969
LOL...the problem has been fixed. And then they broke it again. And then they fixed it, and broke it and fixed it and broke it and so on.
It crops up a couple times a year for a few weeks to a few months at a time.
I wouldn't even go so far as to say they casually ignore the defect. I think they don't have a handle on their systems and don't realize the impact one thing does on the other, and as such they're not monitoring/reporting/QAing/etc. appropriately.
Everything CO seems to build is a band-aid on top of band-aid, so that now they're stuck with this kludge of things that perform tasks that other airlines seem to handle in a much more straightforward manner.
I don't even think there's anything wrong with their buy-up logic. I think the buy-up logic assumes EUA is working properly, and for whatever reason if EUA isn't working right, it sees a bunch of upgrade inventory and starts to sell it cheap, causing this unwanted side-effect.
So if EUA is missing people because of a new booking class ththan ey added but forgot to code, or it gets stuck on more out of sync tickets they're used seeing because of their merger partner handling ticket issues differently, or some new tier they're not recognizing correctly, or whatnot, then there's extra upgrade inventory, that the upsell system sees it and tries to do what it's programmed to do -- sell it.
Heck, a couple years ago, they even began running EUA each time someone checks in, so that's supposed to resolve this issue and allocate any remaining upgrade inventory before upgrades are sold. But of course, that assumes as well that EUA is working properly.
I don't think it's not some evil, deceptive plan by Smisek. It's a change management nightmare they simply don't have a handle on.
But I see your point -- to see this repeatedly, with no visibility into the system (by us or the agents), it sure does look like a conspiracy theory is in order.
It crops up a couple times a year for a few weeks to a few months at a time.
I wouldn't even go so far as to say they casually ignore the defect. I think they don't have a handle on their systems and don't realize the impact one thing does on the other, and as such they're not monitoring/reporting/QAing/etc. appropriately.
Everything CO seems to build is a band-aid on top of band-aid, so that now they're stuck with this kludge of things that perform tasks that other airlines seem to handle in a much more straightforward manner.
I don't even think there's anything wrong with their buy-up logic. I think the buy-up logic assumes EUA is working properly, and for whatever reason if EUA isn't working right, it sees a bunch of upgrade inventory and starts to sell it cheap, causing this unwanted side-effect.
So if EUA is missing people because of a new booking class ththan ey added but forgot to code, or it gets stuck on more out of sync tickets they're used seeing because of their merger partner handling ticket issues differently, or some new tier they're not recognizing correctly, or whatnot, then there's extra upgrade inventory, that the upsell system sees it and tries to do what it's programmed to do -- sell it.
Heck, a couple years ago, they even began running EUA each time someone checks in, so that's supposed to resolve this issue and allocate any remaining upgrade inventory before upgrades are sold. But of course, that assumes as well that EUA is working properly.
I don't think it's not some evil, deceptive plan by Smisek. It's a change management nightmare they simply don't have a handle on.
But I see your point -- to see this repeatedly, with no visibility into the system (by us or the agents), it sure does look like a conspiracy theory is in order.
Dec 28, 2011, 6:45 pm
#163
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Bay Area, CA
Programs: UA Plat 2MM; AS MVP Gold 75K
Posts: 35,068
Couldn't there be a core defect in the CO architecture - namely that because upgrades are only processed as sweeps daily at the same time as the flight (rather than more regularly/dynamically like on United) upgrade availability could exist for some time before the sweep during which people could buy-up while others remain on the waitlist? Doesn't address the TOD item, but could explain how folks could purchase down the upgrades before the sweep occurs.
Indeed. The sweep architecture is one of the fundamental issues they're constantly battling, IMO.
Combined with the distributed architecture, it seems like it's challenging for them to stay on top of.
Dec 28, 2011, 6:46 pm
#164
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near SEA
Programs: UA MM, AS MVPG75K, Marriott Lifetime Gold
Posts: 7,969
Indeed, what you're left trying to design then is a system that releases just-in-time inventory for EUA while not leaving it out there too long for someone else to buy up. What a headache.
Dec 28, 2011, 6:54 pm
#165
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: SRQ-NYC-DCA
Programs: OnePass Infinite CO MM, PC Charter Lifer SkyMiles GM, MileagePlus
Posts: 1,826