Advice for Lake District-Scotland trip
May 23, 2018, 4:01 am
#16
Join Date: Dec 2004
Programs: BA Exec Club
Posts: 581
I go to Skye reasonably regularly and have gotten to know our accommodation provider fairly well over the years (we always go to the same place). Their view (as an accommodation provider on Skye for what its worth) is that in the summer months, if you do not book ahead then you will not have accommodation on the island. During the main summer holiday period there is usually significantly more visitors each day to the island than there are bed spaces available, and anyone that hasnt made arrangements in advance is going to be disappointed. Its not like many other parts of the UK where there is usually something somewhere with beds - there are only a relatively small number of hotels and B&Bs and they are usually booked out quickly.
It is reasonable to advise someone looking at going to Skye in the summer that they really should either book ahead or be prepared for dissapointment, and its a very long drive back to Kyle to find a hotel (if there is one available). A lot of people get caught out by the sheer length of time it can take to drive around Skye due to the roads.
People often forget that the NW highlands are surprisingly big and surprisingly empty and devoid of accommodation options. Better to book early than be near the Three Chimneys facing a 3-4hr drive to Inverness on a summers evening, which is the nearest town likely to have rooms...
And yes, I also think the Lake district is horrifically overrated and not worth going to!
It is reasonable to advise someone looking at going to Skye in the summer that they really should either book ahead or be prepared for dissapointment, and its a very long drive back to Kyle to find a hotel (if there is one available). A lot of people get caught out by the sheer length of time it can take to drive around Skye due to the roads.
People often forget that the NW highlands are surprisingly big and surprisingly empty and devoid of accommodation options. Better to book early than be near the Three Chimneys facing a 3-4hr drive to Inverness on a summers evening, which is the nearest town likely to have rooms...
And yes, I also think the Lake district is horrifically overrated and not worth going to!
May 25, 2018, 9:12 am
#17
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,271
Jimlad48, your provider may have a 'view' but a view is only an opinion and not a statement of fact. What's more, your provider has a biased view obviously and it should be no surprise if they tell you, 'if you don't pre-book with us, you may not get a room.'
Why not take a look at some actual statistics here: VisitScotland.org > Accommodation You will not find any mention of anywhere being 100% full and I think if that were the case, it would have been mentioned. You will find reference to 88% in some areas last summer as being noteworthy, would 100% be less noteworthy?
http://www.visitscotland.org/pdf/SAOSQ32017.pdf
Also note on page 4 of that quarterly report the potential percentages of bookings by method. I say potential because the operators can select more than one method in their response to the surveys. So the 50% 'walk in' bookings is not a hard number but it does indicate a portion of all bookings are walk in. So when they report 88% occupancy, that includes walk ins. I think some people look at an occupancy rate and then think that if they just show up, only the 'remaining' percentage will be available to them. In other words if a place reports 88% occupancy they think that as a walk in they only have a 12% chance of a room being available. That's just bad math.
Numbers don't lie Jimlad48. I can't say your provider lies of course but I can say the numbers do not support his 'view'.
Why not take a look at some actual statistics here: VisitScotland.org > Accommodation You will not find any mention of anywhere being 100% full and I think if that were the case, it would have been mentioned. You will find reference to 88% in some areas last summer as being noteworthy, would 100% be less noteworthy?
http://www.visitscotland.org/pdf/SAOSQ32017.pdf
Also note on page 4 of that quarterly report the potential percentages of bookings by method. I say potential because the operators can select more than one method in their response to the surveys. So the 50% 'walk in' bookings is not a hard number but it does indicate a portion of all bookings are walk in. So when they report 88% occupancy, that includes walk ins. I think some people look at an occupancy rate and then think that if they just show up, only the 'remaining' percentage will be available to them. In other words if a place reports 88% occupancy they think that as a walk in they only have a 12% chance of a room being available. That's just bad math.
Numbers don't lie Jimlad48. I can't say your provider lies of course but I can say the numbers do not support his 'view'.
May 25, 2018, 1:26 pm
#18
Join Date: Dec 2004
Programs: BA Exec Club
Posts: 581
Given we have known the proprieteress for years, and she runs a very small site usually booked out because of its excellent quality and reputation built up over many years, they have no reason to lie. They are also well connected on the island hospitality community and know many other hoteliers and owners. More widely, I don't go to Skye in peak times, so they know that I have no interest in listening to someone try to 'persuade' me to book a summer room I don't want or need.
I am not discounting numbers, but there is a risk of looking at data and over analysing it in face of human experience. I would ask when you've last been to Skye - having gone there over last few years it has exploded in popularity - your experience may have been case over a decade ago, but not the same today.By all means rely on 'data', but there is no need to be so dismissive to another poster offering direct first hand testimony from residents on the island - you can run statistics all you like, but I am merely repeating exceptionally strong advice I have had on Skye from someone I trust implicitly, and also from wider residents too with no reason to make it up - simply, there are at certain times of the year, no spare beds on Skye. This is not the case year round, but there is a window where if you havent booked, you will almost certainly not find a room.
More widely, Skye is a big difficult island to drive through - trying to go from north - south is a 2hr plus drive - a long way to go if you havent got a bed for the night and no mobile phone signal (poor hills) to find where may have rooms late at night. Don't risk it - book early or run the risk of being very dissapointed.
I am not discounting numbers, but there is a risk of looking at data and over analysing it in face of human experience. I would ask when you've last been to Skye - having gone there over last few years it has exploded in popularity - your experience may have been case over a decade ago, but not the same today.By all means rely on 'data', but there is no need to be so dismissive to another poster offering direct first hand testimony from residents on the island - you can run statistics all you like, but I am merely repeating exceptionally strong advice I have had on Skye from someone I trust implicitly, and also from wider residents too with no reason to make it up - simply, there are at certain times of the year, no spare beds on Skye. This is not the case year round, but there is a window where if you havent booked, you will almost certainly not find a room.
More widely, Skye is a big difficult island to drive through - trying to go from north - south is a 2hr plus drive - a long way to go if you havent got a bed for the night and no mobile phone signal (poor hills) to find where may have rooms late at night. Don't risk it - book early or run the risk of being very dissapointed.
Last edited by jimlad48; May 25, 2018 at 3:15 pm
May 25, 2018, 3:03 pm
#19
Join Date: Apr 2017
Programs: SQ TPPS (21),QF G, NZ E, IHG D Amb, Marriott Gold, HH Gold, Shangri-La Jade, Accor Plat, Hertz P
Posts: 397
Given we have known the proprieteress for years, and she runs a small site usually booked out because of its attention, they have no reason to lie. They are also well connected on the island hospitality community and know many other hoteliers and owners.
By all means rely on 'data', but there is no need to be so dismissive to another poster offering direct first hand testimony from residents on the island - you can run statistics all you like, but I am merely repeating exceptionally strong advice I have had on Skye from someone I trust implicitly, and from wider residents too with no reason to make it up - simply, there are at certain times of the year, no spare beds on Skye.
By all means read your numbers, but there is a risk of looking at data and over analysing it in face of human experience.
By all means rely on 'data', but there is no need to be so dismissive to another poster offering direct first hand testimony from residents on the island - you can run statistics all you like, but I am merely repeating exceptionally strong advice I have had on Skye from someone I trust implicitly, and from wider residents too with no reason to make it up - simply, there are at certain times of the year, no spare beds on Skye.
By all means read your numbers, but there is a risk of looking at data and over analysing it in face of human experience.
May 25, 2018, 3:03 pm
#20
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: London
Posts: 1,546
I think you owe Jimlad an apology. Those statistics do not say what you claim. There is not an entry for Skye in that document. Skye is within the Highlands and Islands numbers. These cover a vast geographic area. Just because the entire region wasn't at 100% doesn't mean that the island is Skye wasn't completely sold out, at least in very high summer.
I also spend a lot of time in the Highlands and it's common knowledge that unbooked visitors are frequently having to sleep in their car because they assumed they'd find accommodation on skye and refused to believe it would be sold out.
I also spend a lot of time in the Highlands and it's common knowledge that unbooked visitors are frequently having to sleep in their car because they assumed they'd find accommodation on skye and refused to believe it would be sold out.
May 25, 2018, 3:52 pm
#21
Join Date: Dec 2004
Programs: BA Exec Club
Posts: 581
A couple of media stories from last year to help illustrate the scale of the problem on Skye now - https://www.independent.co.uk/travel...-a7886736.html and https://sltn.co.uk/2017/07/06/a-clea...eded-for-skye/ which has a pertinent quote below (both articles from last summer)
“We have seen a huge influx in visitors to Skye, which is great,” he said. “But in July and August, for example, you can’t get accommodation; it’s full. And that can have a negative impact – if people can’t get a room, can’t park, can’t find public toilets. Broadband connection is another major issue – there are parts of Skye with little or no connectivity. We need a co-ordinated strategy on how we manage things in the short, medium and long-term, particularly how we manage visitor expectations.
We've then got = https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp...r-of-tourists/ also from last year with the line
"Tourists who come without pre-booking accommodation find it almost impossible to find a bed during the busy summer months, with some having to sleep in their cars or on floors."... Gillian Glenwright, who owns the White Heather Hotel in Kyleakin, said: “The phone goes non-stop during the summer months with people looking for accommodation. Visitors from Europe or America usually pre-book, but people coming from this country just turn up and are shocked when they can’t find anywhere to stay. I’ve heard of people sleeping in cars or on someone’s floor.
Three media stories, all from last year, all saying the same thing -prebook in the summer months or face not having any accommodation.
“We have seen a huge influx in visitors to Skye, which is great,” he said. “But in July and August, for example, you can’t get accommodation; it’s full. And that can have a negative impact – if people can’t get a room, can’t park, can’t find public toilets. Broadband connection is another major issue – there are parts of Skye with little or no connectivity. We need a co-ordinated strategy on how we manage things in the short, medium and long-term, particularly how we manage visitor expectations.
We've then got = https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp...r-of-tourists/ also from last year with the line
"Tourists who come without pre-booking accommodation find it almost impossible to find a bed during the busy summer months, with some having to sleep in their cars or on floors."... Gillian Glenwright, who owns the White Heather Hotel in Kyleakin, said: “The phone goes non-stop during the summer months with people looking for accommodation. Visitors from Europe or America usually pre-book, but people coming from this country just turn up and are shocked when they can’t find anywhere to stay. I’ve heard of people sleeping in cars or on someone’s floor.
Three media stories, all from last year, all saying the same thing -prebook in the summer months or face not having any accommodation.
May 26, 2018, 10:11 am
#22
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,271
All 3 stories are what is called 'anecdotal evidence' jimlad48. I am not questioning that Skye is busy in the summer, only the 100% supposition. People who for example go along the main street in Portree and see every hotel has 'no vacancy' signs up and then sleep in their car, are NOT in a position to say there was no room to be had, they are only in a position to say they didn't find one and gave up looking.
In your first link about the Police advising people to book ahead, the part you should have quoted was, "People regularly arrive at the station with nowhere to stay asking for advice and it is simply not possible for police to phone round hotels and B&Bs to try and find them accommodation." That's what the Police were objecting to. They don't want to be used as a booking agency by people who don't go around and find a room for themselves. How else can you read that? The police were NOT saying, 'there are no rooms available.'
The second link from which you quote contains the words, 'you can't get accomodations' along with a similar complaints about lack of parking, public toilets and internet connection and all given equal emphasis. Now do you think that he is saying there is no parking at all; no public toilets at all and no internet connection at all? Does 'you can't find a place to park' actually mean you can't find a place to park? You are interpreting his 'you can't get accomodations' as being a 100% statement of fact rather than simply meaning, 'there is s shortage of accommodation and it can be hard to find a room'. The latter is how I interpret the actual statistics jimlad48.
Your third link is by a hack reporter who has simply used the same information as you got in the second link. She has added 'cars or floors'. Where did that come from? Umm, a hotel owner. Do you call that an unbiased source? Just how many people do you think that hotel owner has actually met who had to sleep in cars or on floors? Dozens? Just because someone says something does not mean what they say is actually true. The hotel owner didn't even actually say they KNEW of one person sleeping in a car or on a floor, what he said was he had 'heard' of it. What does 'heard' of it mean?
I don't doubt some people have slept in their car but even then it does not mean a room was not available, it simply means they gave up looking before they found it. 'Oh I had to sleep in my car'. Second person, 'really, I had to check a few places but I found a room.' Is either one lying? Of course not. But what the first one said does NOT mean no rooms are available.
When people read sensationalist articles by the media, biased 'facts' by people in the business, etc. they hear what they want to hear and do not question it. If someone has a fear of having to sleep in their car if they don't pre-book, guess what they hear? Yup, it WILL happen to them, just like they fear. This is not something confined to Skye, it is the same in every popular tourist destination in the world. 'Oh if you don't have a reservation for X, you won't find a room in the summer'. Just look at any travel forum and you will see hundreds of such posts by people. Someone asks, 'do I need a reservation' and dozens reply, 'absolutely' or you will have to sleep on a park bench.'
The reality is that the ONLY people who know if it is impossible to find a room are those people who go and try to find one. How many of them do you see posting here saying, 'yup, I couldn't find one.' I see none.
When someone who pre-books says, 'you need to pre-book', they are not speaking from experience of NOT pre-booking. I am speaking from my own experience of not pre-booking, all over the world and never once having to sleep on a park bench. How can the belief of those without that experience have more weight than my actual experience with doing it? I want total flexibility when I travel. That means not pre-booking anywhere. Most people plan and pre-book. I have no issue with them doing so, it's their choice. But I do have an issue with them trying to insist that if someone like me chooses not to pre-plan and book everything, that we are going to end up sleeping in a car. It's never happened to me and they don't know what they are talking about.
In your first link about the Police advising people to book ahead, the part you should have quoted was, "People regularly arrive at the station with nowhere to stay asking for advice and it is simply not possible for police to phone round hotels and B&Bs to try and find them accommodation." That's what the Police were objecting to. They don't want to be used as a booking agency by people who don't go around and find a room for themselves. How else can you read that? The police were NOT saying, 'there are no rooms available.'
The second link from which you quote contains the words, 'you can't get accomodations' along with a similar complaints about lack of parking, public toilets and internet connection and all given equal emphasis. Now do you think that he is saying there is no parking at all; no public toilets at all and no internet connection at all? Does 'you can't find a place to park' actually mean you can't find a place to park? You are interpreting his 'you can't get accomodations' as being a 100% statement of fact rather than simply meaning, 'there is s shortage of accommodation and it can be hard to find a room'. The latter is how I interpret the actual statistics jimlad48.
Your third link is by a hack reporter who has simply used the same information as you got in the second link. She has added 'cars or floors'. Where did that come from? Umm, a hotel owner. Do you call that an unbiased source? Just how many people do you think that hotel owner has actually met who had to sleep in cars or on floors? Dozens? Just because someone says something does not mean what they say is actually true. The hotel owner didn't even actually say they KNEW of one person sleeping in a car or on a floor, what he said was he had 'heard' of it. What does 'heard' of it mean?
I don't doubt some people have slept in their car but even then it does not mean a room was not available, it simply means they gave up looking before they found it. 'Oh I had to sleep in my car'. Second person, 'really, I had to check a few places but I found a room.' Is either one lying? Of course not. But what the first one said does NOT mean no rooms are available.
When people read sensationalist articles by the media, biased 'facts' by people in the business, etc. they hear what they want to hear and do not question it. If someone has a fear of having to sleep in their car if they don't pre-book, guess what they hear? Yup, it WILL happen to them, just like they fear. This is not something confined to Skye, it is the same in every popular tourist destination in the world. 'Oh if you don't have a reservation for X, you won't find a room in the summer'. Just look at any travel forum and you will see hundreds of such posts by people. Someone asks, 'do I need a reservation' and dozens reply, 'absolutely' or you will have to sleep on a park bench.'
The reality is that the ONLY people who know if it is impossible to find a room are those people who go and try to find one. How many of them do you see posting here saying, 'yup, I couldn't find one.' I see none.
When someone who pre-books says, 'you need to pre-book', they are not speaking from experience of NOT pre-booking. I am speaking from my own experience of not pre-booking, all over the world and never once having to sleep on a park bench. How can the belief of those without that experience have more weight than my actual experience with doing it? I want total flexibility when I travel. That means not pre-booking anywhere. Most people plan and pre-book. I have no issue with them doing so, it's their choice. But I do have an issue with them trying to insist that if someone like me chooses not to pre-plan and book everything, that we are going to end up sleeping in a car. It's never happened to me and they don't know what they are talking about.
May 26, 2018, 4:21 pm
#24
Join Date: Dec 2004
Programs: BA Exec Club
Posts: 581
Agreed - desperate need by someone to 'win ' internet by trying to tear apart first hand and primary / media sources to prove that 'they' are right is pathetic. Apparently extensively travelling across the world means that all other advice is null and void.
I shall leave this individual to brag about how he 'won' and try to find out if there is an 'ignore' function. In the meantime thats me done here - what a waste of a good thread due to someones unmanageable ego.
I shall leave this individual to brag about how he 'won' and try to find out if there is an 'ignore' function. In the meantime thats me done here - what a waste of a good thread due to someones unmanageable ego.
Last edited by jimlad48; May 26, 2018 at 4:29 pm
May 26, 2018, 6:34 pm
#25
Join Date: Apr 2017
Programs: SQ TPPS (21),QF G, NZ E, IHG D Amb, Marriott Gold, HH Gold, Shangri-La Jade, Accor Plat, Hertz P
Posts: 397
Agreed - desperate need by someone to 'win ' internet by trying to tear apart first hand and primary / media sources to prove that 'they' are right is pathetic. Apparently extensively travelling across the world means that all other advice is null and void.
I shall leave this individual to brag about how he 'won' and try to find out if there is an 'ignore' function. In the meantime thats me done here - what a waste of a good thread due to someones unmanageable ego.
I shall leave this individual to brag about how he 'won' and try to find out if there is an 'ignore' function. In the meantime thats me done here - what a waste of a good thread due to someones unmanageable ego.
May 27, 2018, 11:50 am
#26
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: NCL
Programs: BAEC and Hilton mostly
Posts: 655
Agreed - desperate need by someone to 'win ' internet by trying to tear apart first hand and primary / media sources to prove that 'they' are right is pathetic. Apparently extensively travelling across the world means that all other advice is null and void.
I shall leave this individual to brag about how he 'won' and try to find out if there is an 'ignore' function. In the meantime thats me done here - what a waste of a good thread due to someones unmanageable ego.
I shall leave this individual to brag about how he 'won' and try to find out if there is an 'ignore' function. In the meantime thats me done here - what a waste of a good thread due to someones unmanageable ego.
May 28, 2018, 10:07 am
#28
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,271
Oh how I hope those who cannot present a logical argument for their view of something join Tocsin in using that function. It will mean no more inane responses by them in threads where I post a viewpoint contrary to the common opinion.
May 31, 2018, 7:57 pm
#29
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: SNA; LAX; KUL
Posts: 434
I'm also planning a similar trip to the Lake District and on to Scotland in November.
My current plan is to meet my parents in LHR, get a rental car and from there drive up to the Lake District.
Is this plan too crazy? Google map shows 5hrs drive time and usually in the US, 5hrs is nothing.
My current plan is to meet my parents in LHR, get a rental car and from there drive up to the Lake District.
Is this plan too crazy? Google map shows 5hrs drive time and usually in the US, 5hrs is nothing.
Jun 1, 2018, 2:53 am
#30
Moderator: UK and Ireland & Europe
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Biggleswade
Programs: SK*G, Lots of Blue Elsewhere
Posts: 13,611
I'm also planning a similar trip to the Lake District and on to Scotland in November.
My current plan is to meet my parents in LHR, get a rental car and from there drive up to the Lake District.
Is this plan too crazy? Google map shows 5hrs drive time and usually in the US, 5hrs is nothing.
My current plan is to meet my parents in LHR, get a rental car and from there drive up to the Lake District.
Is this plan too crazy? Google map shows 5hrs drive time and usually in the US, 5hrs is nothing.
5h is possible, it really depends on when. It won't feel like 5h on US cross-country roads, it's more like 5h on the 405 (at least, until you get to Lancaster). Weekday rush hours are to be avoided around the cities you pass en route (London, Birmingham, Stoke, Liverpool/Manchester, Central Lancs).
Once you get past Lancaster, the M6 is a different road entirely. Wide, half-empty and through some really lovely scenery. Oh, and the best motorway service station in the country: Tebay (signposted as "Westmorland Farm Shops").