It's hard to resist joining in the above fray . . .

In any case, I've virtually never experienced the famed French rudeness. I don't know why, but it sure can't hurt anywhere to ask - in the language of the country - if the person speaks English. It is certainly not hard to learn "Parlez vous Anglais?" or the local equivalent. To take it a step further, if you can, why not make it "I'm sorry, but I don't speak xxx. Do you speak English"? That seems to be a pretty good start.

In my experience, the other person will rapidly switch to English (if they speak it). In those few cases when there was no common language, it was quite an adventure trying to communicate regardless. Isn't that the main reason for leisure travel?

Canista,

I know what you mean. I thought some of the things in the report were howlers ("even though the BA staff are French, they'll help you"), but I was a bit ashamed at myself for laughing.

Ultimately, when one comes upon something "provincial," one can go down one of two routes: (1) the take-no-prisoners, snickering, urbane arschloch, or (2) a more restrained, friendly, "that's a great start, but maybe you can also look at this" sort of perspective.

I go down path 1 many times, on FT and in "real life," and I wish I didn't. I think we can help people more, even if without feeling superior to them, if we go down path 2.

So maybe my objections are more about me than about you. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif But people must walk before they can run, and maybe what you should have done is offered some tips for them to enjoy Paris more, instead of mocking them and other residents of Niceville, and ensuring that they either disregard your comments, or they stay home.

Amazin report. I respect the author of this "guide," but if you thought his advice was helpful, then you may want to consider staying home rather than venturing abroad.

I don't think one needs a provincial guide to Paris. How tough is it really to leave the airport, take the RER or Air France bus into the city, walk around, and sit in a cafe watching the world go by? Everything else you play by ear. Simple.

I do agree with the parts about hot croissants and the Louvre though. However, some real practical advice like the Louvre's side entrance instead of ridiculous generalizations like "avoid any kids asking you if you speak English" and "the French are rude" would have been more helpful.

This is a perfect reason why I have a problem with mileage runs. With all due respect to pynchonesque, as I agree that it is better to follow his second path over the first, sometimes people are meant to stay at home. A cheap airfare is only part of the price you pay when you travel. Time is another, but the biggest price is the willingness to open yourself up to change and differences. If you can't do that, there's no point in going anywhere, regardless of the price and your time.

Whenever I travel to a new place, I am the visitor and always assume that I am wrong about everything, that my observations may be flawed and that I can learn from the locals. It has never let me down yet, and it is the main reason I love to travel.

For the record, I have only been to Paris three times, but it is still one of my favorite cities in the world. I speak maybe twenty words (ok, maybe more than twenty but really not much) in French. I smile a lot and have never had a problem.

(If you still feel that you must have a guide since this is your first trip abroad, then go to the bookstore and pick up something from travel author Rick Steves. I used his "Back Door" series when I first started traveling, and I still think it is among the better travel guides out there, even now.)


[This message has been edited by fallinasleep (edited 12-11-2002).]

I hesitated before joining Canista's opinion, No because of his ideas but more because I don't want to start a new Franco-Us war... As a frenchman, I was rather offended by this trip report... but again, people are entitled to their own opinions... I'll take the high road...
If you parents need help planning their trip don't hesitate to contact me.. Happy Holidays..

Come on people he was writing this for his parents who have only been out of the country once. He could have been writing it for my parents as well. What did he say that was so evil?

1) He told them to learn as much French as they could, good advice.

2) He told them that ice in drinks is not the norm. The thing about ice is that it is ubiquitous in the US. Americans who seldom travel outside of the US are routinely surprised that it is not automatically included with mixed drinks and sodas. I think that Americans are known for their icey devotion. I personally don't care one way or the other about ice and don't ask for it when I travel abroad. On more than one occasion I have been asked if I didn't wish for ice to be included with my drink, since I am obviousely American (the sneakers give me away every time).

3) He told them that people on the subway are pushy and that some Parisians are rude. If you have lived your whole life in a small mid-western or southern town the rudeness and "pushiness" of big city folk can be a surprise. They talk pretty fast too.

4) He told them the Louvre was awesome and well worth the price, again good advice. I'm hoping he was joking about the naked statues.

The impression I get from some of you is "if you haven't had the opportunity to travel before you should just stay home for the rest of your life". Not good advice.

Well, you do know that some Americans still are pretty "puritanical" about matters such as human nudity, even if artistic or otherwise (some early/mid evening t.v. commercials in the Netherlands would be pornographic to Americans). Evidently he didn't want his parents to be shocked at what they might see.

In light of some of the indignation brought about by eastwest's post, I wanted to add a couple of comments of my own:

To begin with, a sense of eastwest is in order, hereafter known as EW for brevity's sake: Although I've never met his parents and I've only met EW himself twice briefly before this trip, I found him to be unfailingly polite and well mannered, almost in an old fashioned kind of way. He really does say please and thank you for everything, and addresses people he's never met as "sir" and "Ma'am" (Many people don't these days, and while there're also many who do, he just seems a tad more diligent about it. It's a good quality.) He even went out of his way to write out a positive comment form about the BA Flight Attendant (Including getting the FA's name) who helped out the passenger with the vegetarian meal. These things in themselves say as much about his parents as they do about EW himself. Some things that we might write off as just "City Manners" he and/or his parents might well consider rude. But more on the rudeness factor in a moment.

On Americans and international travel in general: From what I've witnessed at home and abroad, there's little doubt that when it comes to "Worldliness" many Americans are pretty far back in the pack. I've always found Europeans to be far more comfortable and adept at dealing with different cultures and languages if only because they've grown up surrounded by them.

Consider the sheer size and population (280 million) of America. Many people live over one hundred miles from the next state, much less country! As for our neighboring countries - Canada, while officially bilingual, speaks predominantly English. Their culture is similar to America's, just not as loud or ostentatious and a bit more polite. As for Mexico, there are very few borders in the world - certainly none of this length - where the Third World meets the developed, industrialized world. Big difference in cultures there, not to mention incomes and education.

Germany on the other hand is bordered by Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, Switzerland, Austria, the Czech Republic and Poland, each* with different languages and customs. I strongly suspect that the average German likely encounters these differences with far more regularity than the average American encounters even the occasional Canadian or Mexican citizen. Imagine if the six or seven states surrounding Missouri each had a different language and culture! This is not to excuse so much as explain American naivete of international customs, like the lack of ice in drinks. Geography plays a big part. We're kind of insulated here.

And, not to come off as anti-American but American culture, especially the modern day schlock that passes as mainstream American culture is so full of itself and self-celebratory that there's hardly any room to be aware of other cultures! Given the strength of our media and entertainment industry in promoting all this dreck, it's hardly surprising that Americans more than some other nationalities would come across as naive. Couple this with our declining primary education system where other cultures and languages are not given the emphasis they deserve and it's easy to see where Americans don't initially make the best of travelers. While this American naivete has got to be frustrating to many of our more "Worldly" brethren in Europe for example, I would hope that if the opportunity arises to educate and enlighten my fellow Americans, those of you who know better would avail yourselves of it in a polite rather than rude fashion.

The operative word here is "polite" so now we come to the perception of rudeness, particularly as it applies to Parisians. Paris certainly does not have a lock on rudeness as rude people can be found in small towns, even (gasp!) right here in America! Many of you who are flaming EW sound as if you've had considerable experience in the City of Light. Perhaps you even speak the language well. To be sure, EW was only in Paris for a couple of days, though I'm sure that had he stayed longer - weeks, months - the odds are very good that he and Parisians would have become good friends.

I've traveled abroad a bit myself, the operative word being traveled, not toured. I've always felt that travelers travel to experience and enjoy the differences in places whereas tourists like to drag home along with them. We see equal measure of both types in Alaska, believe me. Though I have not been to Paris or France, I've little doubt that EW has plenty of company in his perceptions of rudeness amongst Parisians. I've heard many fellow travelers from a variety of nationalities, not just English speaking ones, comment on it. Again, these people I refer to are folks I knew to be well traveled and open minded.

I read of French Minister of Culture Jack Lang's actions to protect the French culture and language, even banning some words from commercial use. I see the situation in Quebec where the French Canadian citizenry want to be recognized as a "special" culture and where there are strong restrictions on the commercial use of the English language, up to and including how big (or small, if you will) English letters must be on signs as opposed to French letters. There's no doubt that the French have an immense pride in their language and culture, and as well they should! However, I also think that more so than many others, they can and do go a bit overboard in defense of it. And, from what I have often read and/or heard accounts of from fellow travelers, this perception of rudeness in Parisians most often stems from their apparent impatience with or even intolerance of even the mispronunciation of their language! (Ironically, Americans seem to find accents quite charming, at least in Europeans and perhaps especially with the French.) In any event, it seems entirely possible that to a first timer like eastwest, especially one without a good command of the French language, Parisians might initially come across as a bit brusque. It should be noted that he did indeed attempt to first speak French in his dealings with the local Parisians.

For sure, I hardly consider it acceptable for an American or anyone else to just walk into a Parisian shop and expect English to be spoken. That's just arrogance in the extreme. However, I didn't catch the part where EW said no one speaks English in Paris. In fact, he made reference to the local's English speaking abilities on a couple of occasions and specifically recommended trying to speak some French ("some people were nice and some weren't. Many of them speak at least some English and trying to speak French will make them much happier." ) Sounds like sage advice to me.

He also states however "If you don't push and shove with the rest of them you'll be left behind. It's not as bad as Asia, but it's noticeably different from America. People don't respect lines as much and especially on the Subway they will jockey for position." Those are his observations and he's entitled to his opinion. Including calling such behavior rude. His parents would likely assess such behavior in the same way. Again, it was stated early on that this was intended primarily for them.

As for the French Quarter and touristy Greek restaurants, lighten up a bit. Notre Dame and the Eiffel Tower are touristy, too. Paris is a huge city and for a first timer, everything must be new and exciting and different, including the shops and restaurants in the French Quarter. As to those Greek restaurants being amongst the worst, does that mean they are amongst the worst Greek restaurants in Paris or amongst the worst restaurants in a more general sense? EW mentioned that those in the Latin Quarter were reasonably priced. Perhaps the very best ones aren't?

As to the nude statues and their possible perception as "dirty", well, I've never met EW's parents, but if they're like alot of older Americans, vis a vis the European view on these things let's just say that for better or worse there's quite a difference in sensibilities at play here. It's a widely held perception (some would say fact!) that Americans are pretty uptight on things like nudity compared to their European brethren. Viewer be warned.

Finally, nobody's perfect, least of all me. I've no doubt made this response longer than it had to be but it's raining so it beats going outside to play! Please cut me just a wee bit of slack. I'm sure that if EW had this to write over again, he might elaborate upon his taxi comment and he might have said that some people are rude rather than making a blanket statement of it. The line about the baggage claim agents being French but nonetheless helpful I too found odd but chalked up as a Berra-ism, Quayle-ism, etc. I figured he meant to say they worked for Air France. But most of us have been guilty of these faux pas at one time or another.

I'd like to think that most Americans are pretty nice people (As are the French) and as such could turn into some pretty good travelers - however some of us just may need a bit more help than some others. Educate us, enlighten us - but politely please.

psychonesque put it well when writing: "people must walk before they can run, and maybe what you should have done is offered some tips for them to enjoy Paris more."

In that vain, this thread now offers a good opportunity for anyone to add their thoughts and advice on what might help first time visitors to Paris deal with some of the differences and difficulties they might encounter.

P.S. fallinasleep, thanks for the tip on Rick Steves' "Europe Through The Back Door". I've heard good things about this book but have always relied on the Lonely Planet books. I'll pick up a copy of it soon.


[This message has been edited by Seat 2A (edited 12-12-2002).]

My Canista, aren't you a man/woman of the world. I suppose we should be grateful that you come onto FT and read the posts of the less enlightened oiks. Glad we're keeping you amused.

I've read this thread and to be honest the person most lacking in judgment has been you Canista through your rudeness. Furthermore, it's probably your views of Americans (lemonade & pie etc.) that are naive. But then bashing Americans is just soooo fashionable in Europe at the moment.

I would like to reiterate that this was a guide EW produced for his parents and was KIND enough to share in this forum. A lot of comments were aimed at them specifically. I think both Dejahma and Seat 2A made some good points in EW's defence but I'd like to mention a few points that irritated me in yours and others’ responses.

1) Mileage Runs : I thought he covered a lot of ground in his short time there. Fallinasleep may be against MRs but at least he sampled a city that many others don't even visit.

2) Anti-French : I don't think he was overtly narrow-minded as he advised his parents to learn some French, try the bakeries, use the Metro etc. Yes, French people are stereotyped as being rude and other people in the thread have had the opposite experience. As with most generalisations it doesn't always hold true. EW simply reported what he encountered which included positive as well negative points.

3) Restaurants : He enjoyed the ones he visited and he communicated this to his parents. Maybe they're not your favourite restaurants and maybe they are overpriced. Fine, you have different opinions. Instead of snorting derisively at his choices you could have recommended some of your favourites. But then that would have been helpful.

4) Nudity : EW mentioned his parents are from Utah. They may belong to a different church to you, and have a different idea of what's acceptable. Also, given their age may be more shockable than a worldly person like yourself. He was simply giving them the heads-up on what to expect.

5) Ice/cooking of meat : Neither are life or death issues but why ruin a meal when he can advise them in advance. It's not a "when in Rome" issue as TMOTEE said, it's a service issue e.g. when I go to the US I always skip the ice. Should I have sodas with ice I don't like, to "go with the flow"?

Canista, you obviously know and love Paris but don't expect EW to have the same in-depth knowledge as you after a short trip. Similarly, I know and love Rio de Janeiro which the BBC recently did a half-hour special on. It was hopelessly inaccurate (even with the input of many viewers) and did all the expensive touristy things. Does this make the BBC laughable, naïve, lacking in judgment? No, but it does reflect the fact that you can't really get to know a big city in a few days, or for that matter, a month.

One of my Rio anecdotes involves a well-spoken Brit who I saw approach an assistant in a Copa lanchonete (street snack-bar) and ask "Do you know what time the ATMs close at around here". Like your average Brazilian speaks English and knows ATM's an acronym for cashpoints. I guess it's not only people from Niceville, USA who travel the world expecting the locals to speak good ol' American, I mean English.

BTW , I'm looking forward to reading Canista's definitive guide to Paris. Any chance of it being ready when I visit next year?

The sentiment conveyed in the above lines was the reason I felt compelled to write a lengthy, fairly personal response on a subject that didn't really concern me.

The fact is you were rude to EastWest through your ridicule of his opinions, and don't respect him (or most Americans by the sounds of it) . Nor were you particularly apologetic when others thought you were way out of line.

In short, his opinions on Paris didn't agree with yours and were therefore not valid and laughable. If that isn't "bigoted and shortsighted", what is?

Unfortunately, many Americans have never traveled outside of their county, state or country. Because of arrogance, lack of education, curiousity, or just plain stupidity, many Americans tend to resort to being "UGLY". This means expecting everyone to speak english (including when they travel to the UK!). Recently at CDG, a woman was throwing a fit because she didn't get a window seat and she had to check her bags (it was a F100 on KLM City Hopper). She yelled, ranted and raved about rude and obnoxious the natives were, and how this wouldn't have happen in the USA. I apoligized to the Agent for the rude behaviour of my fellow citizen.

I asked the rude woman if she knew any French - she responded "No... I am the one spending the money...if they want it... they should learn to speak English" SHe then went on a further rant about how rude everybody was in Europe. And we wonder why many people of the world hate us..... I told her that it was her Ugly American behaviour that was causing people to respond in kind...

While I found the initial trip report to her parents as a bit provential, I understand that her parents were from Utah....some people have never been exposed to art and are a bit backwards with regards to the subject matter. THeir loss. But at least they are getting the experience, as such, hopefully their world vision will be enlarged.

IMHO

Can you name one subway in the USA that has announcements or signs in French???

Baton Rouge?

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Oh dear...

Well, where does one start after that?

To clear a few “misunderstandings” – my comments were in no way meant to be an anti-US rant – that’s actually a laughable idea. I’ve lived there, would go back in a heartbeat (and might well do) and am actually very close to a significant number of Americans, from all walks of life and indeed have several family members happily leaving there. So please spear me the anti-US angle on that one, it’s not working.

However, upon reading eastwest’s report, I neglected to notice that his parents were from Utah – in fact I neglected to realise that it should have translated as “provincial”, “clueless” and “supportive of stereotypes”. My apologies, I shall be better prepared next time I meet a Utah resident. Obviously, linking being from Utah and being “provincial” is perfectly OK for those who responded negatively to my post. That’s not spreading a stereotype in any way… Personally, I would never assume that being from [Utah / Ohio / Seine et Marne / Roscommon / Wales / etc] would automatically mean that one is clueless and ignorant. As they say, the proof is in the pudding (and this thread has provided evidence on at least one count, that’s for sure).

Pynchonesque, I agree with you and would certainly, in most instances do my utmost to fall in the second category you describe. The problem however, is that eastwest didn’t give me the impression of being “provincial”, he gave me the impression of being naïve, verging on clueless – and, more offending, of assuming that such comments could pass for sound advice. In fact, before I posted, all comments (bar one) were thanking him for providing such good advice. Hence my rather abrupt and outspoken post, for which I cannot apologise, but must however reiterate that I meant no harm to eastwest personally (that’s obvious).

Seat2A – I find your comments both accurate and useful (and I love the trip reports http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif)– ultimately, you are mostly right. I won’t repeat myself but I made no assumption as to where the poster was from, I simply reacted based on what was written. Judging from comments by others posters (some of which Americans), my points weren’t totally off the mark.

So back to the original topic and onto the rather more pleasant thoughts of what to do in Paris for two days. Should eastwest and/or his parents be keen to sample a slightly different style of trip (not better, just different) and need some advice, I’d be happy to help with suggestions, contacts and whatever insight such a man/woman of the world as myself can muster. Email me if you feel like taking up the offer.

(and a smilie for good measure: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif)

[This message has been edited by Canista (edited 12-12-2002).]

Bravo, Seat 2A.

You said (and, as usual, said very well) much of what I would have said in a reply to some of the comments on this thread.

Remind me to buy you a beer some time.

Thank you eastwest, for a very nice trip report. Without realizing at first that this was for your parents, I thought it was a nice view of what was obviously an attempt to relay personal experiences in Paris; sort of like your own personal guide book.

Without wanting to continue too much in the life this thread seems to have taken on, I would just like to make a comment about Americans in Paris and elsewhere abroad, for that matter.

I have travelled fairly extensively from a young age and would like to think I was well brought up (in a place not far from Utah) and given one of the best educations possible in the U.S. I enjoy travelling to new places and try to take in as much of the culture as possible; this includes trying to at least learn mildly usesful phrases in the local language in addition to the languages I already speak. I am particularly fond of Europe and now call London home.

I am not relaying this information in an attempt to show off or exhibit a cultural awareness that is greater than that of any other person's. I want to use it to make the point that not just "rubes" who should stay home in America feel that Paris can be an eye-opener in many ways.

It has been my experience in Paris that a fair number of establishments (particularly those that seem to attract a lot of American tourists) employ horribly rude staff who seem to adopt a brazen attitude the minute they ascertain that one is an American. I have seen these same establishments completely change their attitudes mid-course once they believe that they might have a rich American on their hands. This I find disgusting, to be honest. However, I can see how the perception of Parisiennes in general as a rude group has been promulgated and perpetuated through the years.

I must say that some of my best experiences as an American have been at those places in Paris that are not traditionally populated by Americans, e.g., they are not listed in any guide book or of an infamous reputation. I think that this shows not all Parisiennes are rude toward visitors to their wonderful city. However, it is very true that a few bad apples can ruin it for everyone. The times I have experienced utter contempt at the hands of a French person are far more easily remembered than some of my happier experiences.

Each travel experience is obviously unique to the traveller him/her-self. That experience is obviously impacted by the culture from which that traveller comes. As much as we should respect those cultures/societies that we travel to, we should also respect those from which other travellers have arrived.

Edited to add: The Picasso-Matisse exhibit will close on Jan. 6. It has come from the Tate Modern in London and will travel to MoMa Queens in NY. It is supposed to be fanastic, and I've got tickets to see it in Paris just before it closes. Tickets can be purchased in advance for certain times; have heard that at other times people will wait over an hour to get in!

[This message has been edited by jja34-1 (edited 12-12-2002).]