Full Fare - what is it exactly??
Oct 28, 2008 | 8:57 pm
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5
Full Fare - what is it exactly??
All,
Without getting into too much details of why I need to know what a full fare is, I currently have an issue in finding the true definition of a full fare. What I'd like with this thread is to anwer the following questions:
1) Is there a legal or official definition of full fare? If so, can you provide the link to it?
2) From what I understand, a full fare, is a non-discounted fare, with no penalties, fully refundable. With that said, a round-trip full fare ticket would cost exactly double as a full fare one-way ticket to the same destination. Is that a correct statement?
3) In my view, if a fare that is claimed to be a full fare, costs less than double its equivalent one-way full fare, it has a built-in discount and it is hence not a full fare anymore. Is that a correct statement?
I'd enormously appreciate any help I can get on this.
Thanks!
Without getting into too much details of why I need to know what a full fare is, I currently have an issue in finding the true definition of a full fare. What I'd like with this thread is to anwer the following questions:
1) Is there a legal or official definition of full fare? If so, can you provide the link to it?
2) From what I understand, a full fare, is a non-discounted fare, with no penalties, fully refundable. With that said, a round-trip full fare ticket would cost exactly double as a full fare one-way ticket to the same destination. Is that a correct statement?
3) In my view, if a fare that is claimed to be a full fare, costs less than double its equivalent one-way full fare, it has a built-in discount and it is hence not a full fare anymore. Is that a correct statement?
I'd enormously appreciate any help I can get on this.
Thanks!
Oct 28, 2008 | 9:15 pm
#2
Senior Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Programs: UA Plat/2MM [23-yr. 1K, now emeritus] clawing way back to WN-A List; MR LT Titanium; HY Whateverist.
Posts: 12,458
quili, welcome to FlyerTalk! The term "full fare" can be defined differently for different purposes. Here is one definition used by the U.S. Department of Transportation, Research Administration in 1989: http://www.bts.gov/programs/airline_...umber_120.html. That definition equates full fare with all unrestricted fares and gives examples of them.
Oct 28, 2008 | 11:57 pm
#4
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MCO
Programs: United 1K
Posts: 88
0) I don't think you need to get into the details. I think it's rather obvious you are attempting to recoup something via the legal system by the way you have worded your questions.
1) IANAL, but most likely no, there is probably not a "legal definition" of what a full fare is, but I would grant that there is most likely a common conception of that a "full fare" is.
2) No, I wouldn't agree at all. Why would you expect that a full-fare ticket in one direction would be required to be the same price in the other direction? Although that seems lovely in order to comply with the laws of symmetry, I see no reason why it would apply in reality.
3) No, prices could be set on any number of factors, including load, demand, equipment type, fuel costs due to expected headwinds, etc.
I think I see where you're going with this, but I don't think you're ending at a correct conclusion.
1) IANAL, but most likely no, there is probably not a "legal definition" of what a full fare is, but I would grant that there is most likely a common conception of that a "full fare" is.
2) No, I wouldn't agree at all. Why would you expect that a full-fare ticket in one direction would be required to be the same price in the other direction? Although that seems lovely in order to comply with the laws of symmetry, I see no reason why it would apply in reality.
3) No, prices could be set on any number of factors, including load, demand, equipment type, fuel costs due to expected headwinds, etc.
I think I see where you're going with this, but I don't think you're ending at a correct conclusion.
Oct 29, 2008 | 12:28 am
#5
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5
Wrong assumptions
Bengals311 has got the wrong assumptions. I thought I'd spare the details to save time and space, but here you go:
The company I work for gives all expats a "vacation allowance" which is a sum of money dedicated to pay for a flight back to our home country. The manual states that it should be equal to: "a full-fare, economy class, round-trip air ticket, as quoted by IATA".
The issue is that they used to calculate it by getting the one-way IATA full-fare and multiplying by two. Now they said the rules have changed and that a round-trip, as the manual says, is what should be used.
BTW, there are a few types of Y fares with restrictions, that not necessarily are 'full fare'. For instance, I have two quotes now, from the same airline, both Y fares, same day, same flight, return ticket. The only difference is the minimum and maximum stay. One is 4530 the other is 8898... Which one is the full fare, given both are Y fares?
Anyway, that is the situation. I'm trying to get what I believe is fair for my allowance, that's all.
Hope I can achieve that through this site...
Thanks!
The company I work for gives all expats a "vacation allowance" which is a sum of money dedicated to pay for a flight back to our home country. The manual states that it should be equal to: "a full-fare, economy class, round-trip air ticket, as quoted by IATA".
The issue is that they used to calculate it by getting the one-way IATA full-fare and multiplying by two. Now they said the rules have changed and that a round-trip, as the manual says, is what should be used.
BTW, there are a few types of Y fares with restrictions, that not necessarily are 'full fare'. For instance, I have two quotes now, from the same airline, both Y fares, same day, same flight, return ticket. The only difference is the minimum and maximum stay. One is 4530 the other is 8898... Which one is the full fare, given both are Y fares?
Anyway, that is the situation. I'm trying to get what I believe is fair for my allowance, that's all.
Hope I can achieve that through this site...
Thanks!
Oct 29, 2008 | 1:35 am
#6
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MCO
Programs: United 1K
Posts: 88
I'm glad you posted more information, as it shows that some of my assumptions were definitely invalid.
It sounds like your company has come to its senses as to what a full-fare round-trip ticket should be considered to cost. If I read your response correctly, they used to consider it the one-way fare multiplied by two, but now consider it to be the actual round-trip fare. If that's the case, I think they've taken a step in the right direction.
Taking your example, you state there are two fares, based on minimum and maximum stays. Well, I would think that what you would take to be the "full-fare" would be the fare based upon the amount of time you are planning to stay. If you have a planned travel date and a plan return date, I would consider the maximum full-fare to be the highest Y fare you could find for those dates.
I could be wrong, but it sounds like you're trying to get a "vacation allowance" equal to the maximum possible fare you can find for the dates you are traveling. You state there are two fares for the dates you wish to travel: $4530 and $8898. Are you trying to book the $4530 fare and attempting to justify recompensation for the $8898 fare? More power to you if you can make some money off your vacation, but I think ethically what you should claim for you vacation allowance is the amount that you actually spend for your travel, whether it be the $4530 fare or the $8898 fare.
It sounds like your company has come to its senses as to what a full-fare round-trip ticket should be considered to cost. If I read your response correctly, they used to consider it the one-way fare multiplied by two, but now consider it to be the actual round-trip fare. If that's the case, I think they've taken a step in the right direction.
Taking your example, you state there are two fares, based on minimum and maximum stays. Well, I would think that what you would take to be the "full-fare" would be the fare based upon the amount of time you are planning to stay. If you have a planned travel date and a plan return date, I would consider the maximum full-fare to be the highest Y fare you could find for those dates.
I could be wrong, but it sounds like you're trying to get a "vacation allowance" equal to the maximum possible fare you can find for the dates you are traveling. You state there are two fares for the dates you wish to travel: $4530 and $8898. Are you trying to book the $4530 fare and attempting to justify recompensation for the $8898 fare? More power to you if you can make some money off your vacation, but I think ethically what you should claim for you vacation allowance is the amount that you actually spend for your travel, whether it be the $4530 fare or the $8898 fare.
Oct 29, 2008 | 2:32 am
#7
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 12,952
Normal Fare means the full fare established for a regular or usual service, the application of which is not dependent upon any limited period of ticket validity or other special circumstances. Unless otherwise specified in the provisions of this tariff, normal fares shall be considered to include the following, all year one-way, round trip, circle trip and open jaw trips, first class, business class, executive class, economy class[..] fares.
http://www.alaskaair.com/as/www2/com..._section1A.asp
Oct 29, 2008 | 10:25 am
#9
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 514
Even if a ticket is "fully endorseable", that does not mean it can be used on any airline serving the same route. Back in the days of regulation, this was true in the US, but now the legacy carriers practice the "endorsements" more as a custom / courtesy rather than a requirement. For example, a ticket may be "endorsed" between AA and DL, but the same ticket could not be endorsed to use on WN.
Oct 29, 2008 | 9:37 pm
#10
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5
More information
Bengals311,
Ok, more clarification: I'm not trying to get more money than what I pay for a ticket. I will have to show receipts and be reimbursed based on those anyway. All I'm trying to do is to maximize the vacation allowance based upon which I can claim my trips, i.e., the amount I will have available to spend. Not what I actually spend. Totaly different issues. And please, don't assume I'm trying to cheat anyone. I just need a quick answer on the definition of full fare, that is all.
So, again back to the point: if I get a quote on a full fare IATA itierary that shows a value which is less than double the one-way trip, in my mind it means that fare is discounted based on the fact that you are commiting to fly both ways. In my mind that fare cannot be called full fare anymore, since it has a built-in discount. Full fares should be undiscounted.
What if I fly one leg and want to get a refund for the other leg? Can I do that in the discounted ticket? If not, can that be called a full fare then??
Let me illustrate the questions. Let's say a one-way trip from A to B is U$ 2000 and the same US$ 2000 from B to A. Is it fare to say that if the round trip is, for instance, US$ 3000, whatever this fare is, it cannot be a full fare, since it includes a discount in it?
Should a Full Fare round trip (undiscounted, fully refundable) be US$ 4000??
Thanks
Ok, more clarification: I'm not trying to get more money than what I pay for a ticket. I will have to show receipts and be reimbursed based on those anyway. All I'm trying to do is to maximize the vacation allowance based upon which I can claim my trips, i.e., the amount I will have available to spend. Not what I actually spend. Totaly different issues. And please, don't assume I'm trying to cheat anyone. I just need a quick answer on the definition of full fare, that is all.
So, again back to the point: if I get a quote on a full fare IATA itierary that shows a value which is less than double the one-way trip, in my mind it means that fare is discounted based on the fact that you are commiting to fly both ways. In my mind that fare cannot be called full fare anymore, since it has a built-in discount. Full fares should be undiscounted.
What if I fly one leg and want to get a refund for the other leg? Can I do that in the discounted ticket? If not, can that be called a full fare then??
Let me illustrate the questions. Let's say a one-way trip from A to B is U$ 2000 and the same US$ 2000 from B to A. Is it fare to say that if the round trip is, for instance, US$ 3000, whatever this fare is, it cannot be a full fare, since it includes a discount in it?
Should a Full Fare round trip (undiscounted, fully refundable) be US$ 4000??
Thanks
Last edited by quili; Oct 29, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Oct 30, 2008 | 12:07 am
#11
Moderator Communications Coordinator, Signatures
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: deep within the Eskimo lair
Programs: TubWorld, Bar Alliance, Borratxo Legendarium
Posts: 16,970
Considering the amount of the ticket, I'm guessing this is international travel. The difference in your fares is $162 which could very easily be a tax issue.
Are you looking at the IATA fares directionally?
Just because its $4530 between SEA and XXX doesn't mean that its $4530 from XXX to SEA. Certain taxes are included in the base fare and are charged based on departure country. That could very easily make up for the $162 discrepancy in the calculations you've given.
Are you looking at the IATA fares directionally?
Just because its $4530 between SEA and XXX doesn't mean that its $4530 from XXX to SEA. Certain taxes are included in the base fare and are charged based on departure country. That could very easily make up for the $162 discrepancy in the calculations you've given.
Nov 12, 2008 | 2:21 am
#13
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 5
Full Fare - Round 2
All,
From what I understand a full fare is a non-discounted, fully refundable fare, is that a correct definition?
If so, I have a quote, for a IATA route, that says a one-way full fare is US$ 5621.00, and for the same route, the round-trip fare listed is US$ 8898.00.
A couple of questions about these fares:
1) If the round-trip fare is less than the one-way fare, doesn't this go agains the definition of full-fare (non-discounted), since this fare is considering a discount from the one-way, because you are returning?
2) If that is so, then this fare should not be qualified as full fare, correct? Should the round-trip cost at least double of the one-way, if it indeed a full fare?? That is what happens in business class, for instance, there is no discount for round-trips....
Thanks in advance for your support!
From what I understand a full fare is a non-discounted, fully refundable fare, is that a correct definition?
If so, I have a quote, for a IATA route, that says a one-way full fare is US$ 5621.00, and for the same route, the round-trip fare listed is US$ 8898.00.
A couple of questions about these fares:
1) If the round-trip fare is less than the one-way fare, doesn't this go agains the definition of full-fare (non-discounted), since this fare is considering a discount from the one-way, because you are returning?
2) If that is so, then this fare should not be qualified as full fare, correct? Should the round-trip cost at least double of the one-way, if it indeed a full fare?? That is what happens in business class, for instance, there is no discount for round-trips....
Thanks in advance for your support!
Nov 12, 2008 | 7:08 am
#14
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: MSY; 2-time FT Fantasy Football Champ, now in recovery.
Programs: AA lifetime GLD; UA Silver; Marriott LTTE; IHG Plat,
Posts: 14,814
I suspect usage of this term varies by airline, and also whose definition of "full fare" you need to satisfy. Is this to qualify for a bonus, or to satisfy corporate bean counters, or to research for an article?
Nov 12, 2008 | 8:58 am
#15
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: May 2001
Location: MSY; 2-time FT Fantasy Football Champ, now in recovery.
Programs: AA lifetime GLD; UA Silver; Marriott LTTE; IHG Plat,
Posts: 14,814
Okay, well in that case, it's clear that the intent of the policy is to allow you fly home and back on a refundable, unrestricted ticket. Or if you'd rather use that same amount on a different trip, to allow that too. So IANAL, but in this case, using the lower roundtrip price seems very reasonable to me.