FT is interesting - different cultures sometimes rub up against each other..... I do think its funny that 38" can be termed First Class - seems to be an American thing, I don't know. Anyway, I think its unfortunate because the term drives expectations...

Actually that seat pitch is the same as what I get from EVA in their deluxe economy on the 747. They also have Business (44") and First (75" to 80").

When in deluxe economy (ie 38") I generally don't recline my seat much because I'm aware how much space it takes from the person behind. If the lights go out, or the guy behind reclines then I generally do the same if I want to. Often if he's awake then I'll just say "I'm going back, is that OK" or whatever. Just because the seat can recline, doesn't mean I feel its my right to go to the limit.

You said "after wheels up". Well I think I'd be annoyed if you did it rightaway - and I wouldn't have done the same, especially if someone was trying to read a newspaper. People often aren't in the mood to relax so quickly - and the only way people can relax if the guy in front reclines is to recline themselves. If there's a meal service, I'd always wait until that had been cleared away first. No excuse for his response though.

Frankly I wish 38" seats wouldn't recline as much as they do. Even better if they could be centrally controlled. (Or have a recline light similar to the seatbelt light!) But given they do, if someone in front of me reclined I'd put up with it without complaining.

UA's F on a domestic 757 is, roughly, equivalent to the seat pitch I've encountered in LH international C. If anything, the seats on LH recline a bit more.

The expectation on US airlines is that F seats can and will recline. That's one of the reasons, if not the primary reason, for buying F -- the ability to sleep on the flight. That's why I titled this thread, "with a twist." I've never heard of the recline debate extending into F on any American carrier.


I always recline after wheels up -- I've even checked with FAs to make sure it's okay to do that. I never recline during a meal service.

As far as reading a newspaper goes, there were plenty of people in F reading papers with the person in front fully reclined. This guy was just being a jerk. However, regardless, his "right" to read a newspaper doesn't trump my right to recline -- it's not "his" space. However, as I indicated, I'm willing to make reasonable accommodations when asked politely, and if he had just asked, instead of playing the knee-in-the-back game, and then assaulting me with his newspaper, I would have readily acceded and limited the amount of my recline (but I would not have refrained from reclining at all).

Keep in mind this was a 2.5hr domestic flight. 38-40 is about normal in the US. You really have to go international to see a 50-92" product.

I am not sure why you choose to compare a domestic 757 with an international 747. The domestic 757 are 2 cabins aircraft, and what is sold as First Class is essentially a domestic Business Class cabin. And this is not peculiar with just the US; this is practised in many other places as well.

And reclining one's seat immediately after the seat-belt signs are off is fairly common practice in premium cabins especially on evening flights. Why should you be annoyed with someone trying to get some rest

Actually EVA use those 747s on the short run to Hong Kong (about 90mins) which is comparable to many domestic flights in the US.

But that's not my point. Nothing wrong with 2 cabin services.

And this is not peculiar with just the US; this is practised in many other places as well.

No. In Europe and Asia at least, its rare to find 2-cabin services promoted as First and Economy. Certainly not "many other places".

Otherwise you confirm my point "what is sold as First Class is essentially a domestic Business Class cabin". The term First Class is driving expectations about what is essentially something less that that. In First (and perhaps true Business) people expect not to have to worry about other PAX. I'm not making a comparison - I'm pointing out that just because its called "First" doesn't mean very much. Its only 38" - and I have plenty of experience on that.

If its evening as you say and the general mood is to relax (ie the turn off the lights or dim them) then no problem. I would still look over my shoulder to see what the guy behind is doing first. If food is being served, people are generally active, then I think its impolite. And that's why I would be annoyed.

Off-hand, SIN-KUL and SIN-KCH.

Both ex-SIN and with the same airline perhaps?
Any others? Any at all in Europe?

Perhaps your use of "many" was also "off-hand" ?

In my experience its RARE and I didn't say NEVER.

Two cabin services outside of North America are usually promoted as Economy and Business, or variations thereof.

I agree with your analysis. I would just add though its not "his" space, I feel its not "yours" either. The recline is provided, so as you say its your "right" to use it. Seems your attitude perfectly reasonable - and this chap was completely ridiculous.

This assumes that reclining is comfortable for everyone. I don't recline because it is uncomfortable for me - few seats are shaped to give me the support I need, even in premium classes. I have to be close to 90 degrees or completely flat. (If you've gotten a rental car where the driver's seat is completely upright, I've probably had it before you.

But the original poster has the reasonable attitude that should be encouraged. Reclining is a personal preference and both parties should try to make polite compromises in a way that does not inconvenience one greatly over the other.

Was travelling from ORD to YVR last week and tries to recline after wheels up and was hit on the head with a newspaper.A cry of "your on my lap!" followed. Turned around to find a lsweet ittle old lady who was clearly not a frequent flyer. Suffice to say, I had my seat up for the rest of the flight.

"Sweet" More like "B----"

At least people could be polite about it.

I can feel a binary view on this - it rasies some very strong emotions in some.....
The seat reclines and you are in it. You are entitled to recline it and do so without intimidation from someone behind you.
As someone said in the thread just do it slowly..... I had an exploding laptop screen one time when someone slammed it back, the screen got caught on the tray table clip and flexed.... sigh.
Unfortunatley there are always those who don�t see it this way

I'm with the OP here. If the person behind me wants to pay for my seat, then he can tell me whether or not I can recline it.

Not sure why you are harping on something so OT to the discussion here, but I will reply anyway :
airlines : both MH and SQ
others : i believe some flights in Japan, but not absolutely sure.
europe : i dont live in Europe.
Satisfied ? Lets get back on topic.

I disagree the term First Class is driving expectations on US domestic flights. 99% of passengers in domestic F are American FFs and they certainly know what they are getting. So its no excuse to kick the seat infront just because one cant read newspaper incomfort.

jimbo99 : You have made a lot of remarks/comments about US domestic F service. Do you have any "actual" experience on US domestic F ?

I do notice that some passengers reading newspaper have the habit of resting their arm/hand on top of the reclined seat infront (Domestic F). From the American FF point of view, is this "acceptable" behaviour ?