When in Rome, do you do as the Romans do?
 

Personally, I do try to learn the local lingo (at least basic words and phrases necessary for travel) prior to visiting a foreign country, in part because it makes my life easier but also because I consider it to be somewhat rude not to, but I guess I'm in the minority.


"Reports out of the United Kingdom say many of its citizens believe US policies and culture are making the world a more dangerous place to live. Some Australians think we're dumb, obese and arrogant; they use the phrase, "Oh, that's so American" as a put-down.

Keith Reinhard, a former international marketing executive, says, American travelers are often at fault for such sweeping stereotypes. Too many have scarce knowledge of and little regard for the cultures and norms they encounter. All too often, they talk down to their hosts."

Taking the 'ugly' out of 'American' in eyes of rest of the world

Aside: Nice handle/location/membership. Live long and prosper. (My AIM name in highschool was mattuvok)

It goes both ways. On the one hand, it is helpful to learn the local customs and basic words to blend in when you're just wandering the streets or performing some extremely basic tasks (buying coffee, asking for the bathroom). It also demonstrates a certain degree of effort, as you said, to compliment the country and culture and move away from the stereotype of the ignorant American.

On the other hand, and I fall into this trap all the time as one who studied Mandarin Chinese for four years in college, depending on where you are and who you're talking to, there's a good chance that "they" speak English better than you speak the local language. In that sense, I've known people who are insulted when you try to speak to them in the local language/go out of your way to utilize their customs as opposed to just letting them be the ones to adapt. Frequently, in China as well as Europe, attempts (and my Chinese is perfectly decent) at speaking to a local in the language resulted in rolling eyes and a "How can I help you?" in English.

Oh well. I guess I'll just have to get completely fluent!

are the title of this thread and the text at odds w/each other? :confused:

"Do as the Romans do" and "When in Rome..." have slightly different meanings, yes. The title would've been more accurate using the latter. Not that it really matters. -xj

Yes, but I won't "do as the Greeks do".

[QUOTE=xj

On the other hand, and I fall into this trap all the time as one who studied Mandarin Chinese for four years in college, depending on where you are and who you're talking to, there's a good chance that "they" speak English better than you speak the local language. In that sense, I've known people who are insulted when you try to speak to them in the local language/go out of your way to utilize their customs as opposed to just letting them be the ones to adapt. Frequently, in China as well as Europe, attempts (and my Chinese is perfectly decent) at speaking to a local in the language resulted in rolling eyes and a "How can I help you?" in English.

Oh well. I guess I'll just have to get completely fluent![/QUOTE]

This has happened to me many times. I try to speak the language and they roll their eyes when I'm not pronouncing something correctly and they immediately go into their English mode. One waiter told me it's easier that way since he's busy.

Everything Roman is a copy of the Greeks.

Aren't they both parts of the same idiom?

I don't think I need to say more than "YES" here.

You can't get around the fact that U.S. foreign policy sucks.

However, I think most people around the world know that the U.S. government does not represent its people outside the U.S. - rather it only represents a few powerful lobbies and their usually distasteful demands. I'm thinking about large American corporations and Israel here, who between them pretty much determine who gets elected in America. So in my mind and I'm sure the minds of many, the actions of the U.S. government are easily separatable from the caracter of the American people.

I have found that most Americans are far more polite when overseas than the average international traveler outside his or her home country. Even when I was a youngster growing up in London, I enjoyed meeting Americans (and Canadians, who were the same as Americans to a ten year old) more than any other nationality, because they were so friendly, upbeat and appeared to be very willing to learn about other cultures.

Now wait a minute. I'm not a huge supporter or Israel or anything, but that seems like an awfully targeted comment. Israel's official 2004 lobbying in the US is a pitiful $1.1m as opposed to $8.5m by France, $6m by Canada, etc. Even counting unofficial lobbying, which has been estimated as high as $55m by pro-Israel groups in the US, that still would put the issue behind Fannie Mac, SBC and the National Association of Realtors.

Does the National Association of Realtors determine who gets elected in the US? No? Then don't attack one particular country lest people think there is something else motivating your opinions.

References:
http://www.publicintegrity.org/lobby...t=topcompanies
http://www.publicintegrity.org/lobby...ountries&co=il
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ael/lobby.html

I think many people that Americans come into contact with overseas also believe that lobbies, including the Israel lobby are extremely good at influencing the outcome of many elections.

The Israel lobby has the advantage of having many media outlets that mirror and magnify their views, something the NAR and Freddie MAC don't have.

You are entitled to think that the Israel lobby is benign, but many of it's demands on American elected leaders do result in misery for many Palestinians and have in large part contributed to the state of affairs in Israel and Palestine. You may disagree with this connection but many around the world are alive to it. It adversely affects the reputation of your government and in some cases the American people, which is something the OP was wondering about.

Isn't it amazing that an innocuous question about the behaviour of Americans abroad becomes a lead in to a discussion along the lines of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Talk about hijacking a thread.....

If you go to Mr. Reinhard's (the author of the article I posted) website Business for Diplomatic Action , you'll see that the article was actually based on many research studies, including the Pew Global Attitudes Survey

(bolds mine)

Sad that someone clearly as well traveled as yourself would base his/her opinions on beliefs and stereotypes... I'm not even going to get into your last paragraph.

Do also remember that I started my comments with the statement "I'm not a huge supporter of Israel". It's true. I'm not. The government there has done some horrific things to people who didn't deserve any of it. But to connect that to such broad, offensive stereotypes as the ones you've listed is really quite unfair. -xj

I apologize, Captain, for getting into that here. Out of respect for you and the rules of FT, you'll hear no more on the topic from me.

I've seen the World Citizens Guide(here) in the hard copy version for students studying abroad. The "lite" version that is linked on the BDA website that you've linked is a weak form of the hard copy version which is a nice little booklet -- nice enough that I wish everyone who ever leaves the US could read it. I also wish they'd make the full version available online. The BDA site has some interesting looking stuff on it, though. Thanks for posting the link.

Yeah, me too (sorry).

BTW, my favourite quote from the original article...

No. I do as I deem fit.

This has happened to me too, especially in downtown Rome in the summer when it's packed with American tourists. They speak in English and I'll keep responding in italian. Finally they can get kind of impatient and in a huff, and I'll say in English, "We are in Italy, where most people speak Italian, and I have studied Italian (still working on it) and am trying to honor your language and customs while I am here." or worse yet I'll say it in some broken italian, and I'll add in something about my favorite team, Roma and reading La Gazzetta dello Sport as much as possible. This usually brings a smile to their face (women), or at the very worst shuts them up. Guys on the other hand always have an opinion about soccer and sports, so this erases any tension.. However, I have yet to see Italians gruffly ask in the Parisian style "what do you want" in response to my poor Italian. They're usually very proud of their language and love the fact that you are trying it out, even taking the time to correct your pronounciation. An example, "Straciatella, per favore," I tell the gelato guy. "stracia-telllla," says the nice gelato man, smiling and giving me a little extra.

Ditto with the Chinese, except no one speaks English here. For a country in which people are running about and never queue (line) up, the Chinese, in most of my experiences, have an incredible amount of patience for foreigners trying to speak their language. They are convinced that Mandarin is one of the most difficult languages to learn and learn well (a huge source of pride, along with their history and culture). They'll stand there and say numerous things to help you understand what's going on, and if you begin to play charades to show them waht you mean (I really have no shame when it comes to this), they'll play along and try to help you out. It's very encouraging, and it's made me hate hearing the phrase, "We're in America, speak English!"

English is a tough tough language...

So yes, when in Rome, I try to do as Romans do...

Zai Beijing a! Tai haole. Wo xiang jile!!! Ni zuo shenme gongzuo? Hai yao yige ren? ;) Wo gang biyele -- yao wode gongsi gei wo qu Beijing... Zhu ni hen haowan (or should I say haowarrrrr :D )

I dont think its really such an issue not speaking the language, the english have a great reputation of speaking english louder and slower, like talking to an idiot in an attempt to make themselves understood.

However its things like sitting in an italian cafe ordering a salad, and saying something like, "make it with crisp fresh lettuce only, with no more then 2 salad onions and 3 tomatoes; and a fat free carb free low sodium ranch dressing on the side" Then refusing to understand that the don't have any of aforementioned dressing "but even Applebees has it honey!!!" -Not everything is like it is back home!!

Reminds me of the boba tea shop we go to near our office. One of my co-workers (not Chinese) had just come back from working in Taiwan and the shopkeeper lit up like a beacon when he addressed her with his limited vocabulary. Another friend and I went to the shop one day and she immediately asked, "Where's my Chinese friend?"

I feel somewhat intimidated talking to a native speaker, so I usually clam up other than greetings, thank you and please. When I can, I try to do as the locals would do, although in Tokyo last month, I had to wonder if my co-workers thought I was being rude in the noodle shop for slurping the noodles! :)

A visitor to this country should not be expected to speak English and should be given all the help and hospitality possible. However, the immigrants should learn English and speak English and quite trying to have their own little sub countries within a country. Many immigrants have learned and do speak English and should be respected, regardless of accent. The ones that don't try, don't care, or try to push their language should leave.

Speaking English no matter how broken is honorable.

Welcome to America, now speak Mohawk.

Do you honor them with your hairstyle? :D

We flew into PGA (Page Arizona) a couple of weeks ago on our way to a houseboat on Lake Powell and I was somewhat surprised to be surrounded by upwards of a 100 French tourists crowding the tiny municipal airport and talking loudly in, well, French. :)

We were curious where they'd come from and I asked a man in French if he spoke English. "Non," he replied and I was soon surrounded by a small crowd of people listening to my pathetic few words of their language.

We've spent a couple of months in France over the past five years and I chuckled when the topic turned quickly to nourriture (food) and the lack thereof in French eyes during their bus tour of the Southwest.

Anyway, to make a short story long, I try to stumble along in my high school French when in France and 99% of the population seem to appreciate the effort. In other countries we learn to say "thank-you" at least. So far we've found Turkish and Hungarian to be the toughest at five and six syllables but it's well worth the effort IMHO.

There are so many nuances in different cultures, e.g. a greeting ("bon jour monsieur") even before asking a short question in France, that it's hard for us foreigners to understand.

Likewise, I worked hard not be annoyed when an elderly German woman in the same airport (yes, it was a flock of Germans this time) as we were departing lined up very close behind me when I used the payphone, simply because "proximity" is one of those cultural differences that one may read about or experience through travel, while others are unaware.

There's no way that woman would have known I felt uncomfortable that she was invading my personal space - but for me it all adds up to another great reason to travel and learn a little bit about how other folks live their lives.

I guess it really should come as no surprise that most of the people posting on flyertalk would be more sensitive to local culture and customs than the average American tourist.

It just amazes me that so many Americans apparently (according to Mr. Reinhard's research) do not.

Agree. I wonder if there are any other developed countries in the world that accept immigrants who don't speak the "official" language? I doubt that any European countries would (unless said immigrant has mucho dinero or celebrity status).

No kidding! I learned yesterday (from Mr. Reinhard's guide) that in Belgium it's considered rude to talk with your hands in your pockets! Who knew?!

That's OK xj, at least you're aware of/have an opinion of the subject, and that's saying more than many people can. Besides, you know how to speak/write Mandarin!

For some reason that description of the "Parisian style" makes me laugh. Sure, sure, some consider it a stereotype, but it makes me think of David Sedaris' depicton of his life as an American living in Paris (from this "This American Life" NPR show a month or so ago). Also, you give a great example of the benefits of learning a little of the local language and trying to use it. PS - one of the "problems" that forced Walmart to shut down a few months ago in Germany, was that the VP of "Walmart Germany" (and I think some of the upper managers as well) didn't bother to learn German. No extra Straciatella for them!

More Americans of varying educational levels and interests were financially able to travel in foreign countries for many years than were citizens of many or most other nations. Mrs. Fredd and I have seen citizens of other nations behave while tourists in ways that don't reflect favorably on them. The more of them we see, the more we feel comfortable in making possibly unfair generalizations.

Since English is understood in many other places, it is easier for people to hear (and to be amused or offended by) loud comments made by English-speaking tourists than for us when hearing people talk in language x, y, or z.

And, for the umpteenth time, the "Ugly American" was the hero of the book of the same name. ;)

FWIW... :)

Cheers,
Fredd

I assume you're making an exception for English-speakers, since few of us speak the exisiting native languages, right?

How so? I thought it was just a language.

Make an effort
 

I'm anxious to read the guide, but I think it boils down to American's making an effort:

- Effort to learn simple greetings/thank you's (bonjour madame, grazzie, gracias, etc.)

- An effort to try new things when abroad (ie: no McDonalds, Hard Rock, Starbucks, etc.)

- An effort to step off the beaten (ie: touristy) path in major cities.

- An effort to "go with the flow" when something is not like it is at home (small hotel rooms, slow service, disorganized lines, no credit cards, lack of napkins are all things I've heard Americans loudly complain about in Europe)

I know I'm preaching to the FT crowd, but maybe the World Citizens Guide can be a required read before a passport is issued or put in a seat pocket on Int'l flights?

WOH WOH WOH. Now I'm all for learning greetings and going with the flow, but you're talking about STARBUCKS here?

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? :D

In response to OP, yes I do. I think the majority of frequent international travelers do.

I would say a qualified 'yes'.

The more I travel, the more I come to the opinion that people are fundamentally the same, and that the differences, while forming the interesting, fun part of travel, are largely superficial and habit-based. I see more diversity among my friends and neighbours than I do when travelling (admittedly, I live in South London), so when 'doing like the Romans', I always wonder what that means.

If it means learning a little language, learning the most important customs, and taking advantage of all the little things (esp food and drink) that make the place interesting, then absolutely. But if it means forcing yourself into acting in a way that fits with an ill-conceived stereotype of that country's people... Then absolutely not.

There can be a kind of inverse snobbery among certain groups of travellers with respect to 'seeing the real x' or 'acting like a local', 'doing what the locals do'. First off, the assumption that 'locals' all act the same and all prefer to eat in cheap, back-street restaurants is rather patronising. And the relentless quest for authenticity quite often leads to little but those trying to sell an archetype to the Lonely Planet crowd, looking authentic, but being actually as genuine as the Starbucks in the Hilton up the road.

I will act out of respect. I will take advantage of whatever I can. I went to Uzbekistan, I bowed with my hand on my heart, I drank tea cross-legged on a bedframe, I ate plov and shashlik. That's a great part of travellilng. Pretending to be something I'm not, or seeking out something that doesn't exist... No, I didn't do that.

One thing to note is that in other English-speaking countries the toilet is not called "the bathroom".

One thing that is nice about visiting Starbucks in other countries, is that you don't have to "rent" a table to get coffee (ie: coffee is served in "to go" cups).

However, the last time i was in Europe, I noticed that more of the local shops were bucking tradition and serving coffee in paper cups also. And it's hard for me to imagine why else would visit Starbucks (known to some as "Star-burnt" or "franchise for steamed milk") in places that serve much better coffee at local shops (unless of course you own shares of SBUX and feel somehow that you'd be helping their bottom line). For example, there is a Starbucks right accross from the Opera House in Vienna, and this seems a little sacriligous somehow, in a city/country that takes coffee so seriously.

PS - Starbucks founders learned the art of coffee roasting from Dutch immigrant Alfred Peet (founder of Peet's Coffee), so their methods of coffee-making/roasting actually are European in origin

Excellent post - i.e. I agree with you. :)

So basically (like in many other instances), everything in moderation.

What shocked me about the article I posted, was that it indicated that a large number of tourists were on one of the extremes. I've witnessed tourists myself while abroad that fit the mold as described in the article, I just didn't realize how prevalent it was (according to the article).

So, yes, I second the motion that the "World Citizens' Guide" should be required reading for all Americans travelling abroad.

There is also one in the heart of the Forbidden City in Beijing. It used to be outside the walls, but too many protests and a realization that 95% of the business came from the Western tourists who were buying tickets into the Forbidden City anyway led them to relocate it... here!

(hover your mouse on the pic and a little box will point out the Sbucks for ya)

I don't share your doubt. ;)

Of countries in Europe that weren't in the Soviet sphere, most accept immigrants who don't speak the official language(s). And most such persons accepted as immigrants are neither rich nor holders of "celebrity status".

I do as I deem fit, for I'll never be a local in most place. "Doing as I deem fit", does include making adjustments, but generally won't amount to "doing in Rome as the Romans".