I’m not sure you should completely disregard these places when they’ve integrated themselves into the local culture. In Rome these days, the Romans frequent burger bars after all.

I enjoyed tofu burgers for the limited time they were available in Tokyo MuckyDs (ebi-prawn burgers are rather nice too - & you always get a free glass, and I mean glass of water with your meal). I don’t eat chicken but KFC in Japan has become a quintessentially Japanese experience (especially at Xmas) The portions they serve you are perfect, like the ones you see only in commercials.

I ONLY frequent Starbucks in Japan as they serve green tea frappuccino (not available in the UK - I don't like any of the other beverages they do).

And I’ve eaten battered squid rings at MacDonalds in Italy and the gazpacho in MacDs in Spain is very good (from Alvalle) as are the salads – some with olives and asparagus.

I’m not suggesting you only visit American franchises, but you can learn a lot about the culture your visiting by seeing the unfamiliar items available in these familiar surroundings.

There's something very Japanese about having the salmon/rice/miso combo breakfast set at Denny's too.

I agree that visiting "localized" versions of the places you're accustomed to in the US can be a lot of fun. Pizza Hut in China is my favorite example -- it is a luxury restaurant there where, in addition to some amazing pizzas that you never could have imagined being served in the US, they also serve incredible milk shakes, frozen coffee drinks and desserts. The cheesecake is incredible.

I'm afraid you are mistaken. I know of at least two countries (France and the Netherlands) that require would-be immigrants to speak the native "official" language prior to acceptance as citizens.

Additionally, given the history of European countries as being stricter regarding immigration, it would surprise me if 1) applications for citizenship would be accepted without someone knowing the language and
2) immigrants who met the often lenghty requirements for living in a country would not know the language

Also, I have heard that Switzerland will accept individuals not meeting all requirements, based on a their income level, but not sure if this is true or not. I wonder if anyone else might know?

Yes many do, but most of us can distinguish between the government and the people. Standing on the left on the tube will get a reaction though.
I really, really shouldn't find that funny.

I'm afraid your claim about me being mistaken is mistaken. Given your words below, it's clear I am subject to your apparenty moving of goal posts. [The specific talk was about accepting immigration, not about giving citizenship, as you go through below. ;) ]

I'll play along with the game, despite the moving of goal-posts. ;)

I know naturalized French citizens who did not speak French at the time of acquiring French citizenship. They are neither rich nor famous. If you want to move the goal posts again from "given the history of European countries" to the more recent present, this discussion won't be that.

The UK, France, Belgium, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Spain, Portugal, and Italy all have citizens who were immigrants that acquired citizenship of those countries when they didn't speak the official languages at time of filing for and getting citizenship.

And the so-called history of European countries being stricter regarding immigration is questionable. For one, many take in a high proportion of refugees than most countries on the planet, including us; for two, there was immigration within and to European states even before there was immigration to the US. ;)

Many European countries have a higher proportion of immigrants from a non-bordering area than most countries outside of the Americas.

Also, the US gives more people headaches to enter than European countries. Look at the number of people who need a visa in advance vs. who don't to visit in different places. ;) For just one example, take a look at the ease with which Brazilians can go to certain countries yet not go to the US. ;)

Are you now asking about citizenship or immigration? It's hard to answer questions when dealing with goal-post moving.

You do neet to be careful with this one. Many European countries accept members of the EU under the terms of that treaty. They also accept 'guest workers' and refugees who have no chance of earning citizenship. Many European countries are extremely strict about accepting immigrants on a citizenship path. There are Turks in Germany who were born in Germany, whose parents were born in Germany who are not eligible for citizenship.

That said, I am sure that you can find exceptions for every rule. Many European countries are very good about granting citizenship to spouses, including those I am sure who do not speak the language.

I am pretty familiar with immigration policies in a few European countries and about the dynamics between the new EU member countries and the established ones. I'm also familiar with some ridiculous immigration things like Denmark's ridiculous immigration policy that forces Danes married to Americans to move to Sweden and commute back to Denmark for work while a Brit married to a Kazakh can live in Copenhagen without anywhere as much government stink. I'm also aware of some American immigration ridiculousness when it comes to spouses of American citizens, especially from VWP countries. And that's just the start of it if going down the citizenship debate.

The talk was about accepting immigrants .... not about giving out citizenship.

I find stut's comments match my own thoughts.

When I am traveling for pleasure, I am more likely to take some time to learn a little bit of the language and customs, both because I have more time to do so, and because I will have more time to use them. For work, if I learned the local language of everywhere I went in the past three years, I would have needed to learn 18 languages and 9 alphabets (not counting Japanese Kanji) some of which I would have used for as little as three days. This doesn't even count numerous African languages which are used as well as the colonial languages of English and French. I just don't have that kind of facility with languages, so I rely on the kindness of strangers.

Sorry, the question seems to turn on the definition of immigrants. I think of an immigrant as someone who is permanently relocating (and perceived that way by the host government). Many of the non-nationals in Europe do not fit that definition. It is presumed that they will return to their 'home' country, even if that is not in reality the case. Your view seems to take a broader definition. So, on that note, I will let the matter rest.

I do not dispute any of your arguments about the current status of American immigration policy which is often arcane, inhumane, and non-functional.

I agree with you, the borders should be closed :p

[QUOTE=LapLap]I’m not suggesting you only visit American franchises, but you can learn a lot about the culture your visiting by seeing the unfamiliar items available in these familiar surroundings.[QUOTE]

When in Hyderabad I thought the Tandoori Supreme from Pizza Hut was totally amazing!

So, apparently I'm not the only one who defines an immigrant this way

Of course not. There's always someone.

You claimed that

You doubt that there are "any European countries" that would accept immigrants who don't speak the "official" language(s) (unless rich or famous)? Well, the facts don't stand with you. I know Americans, Australians, Indians, Chinese, Thais, Malaysians and New Zealanders who have the Swedish PUT-bevis -- permanent residency -- and don't speak any Swedish more than "hamburger", "apple" and other words of that sort. Nor are they what I would identify as "rich" and certainly not famous.

So much for the theory about there not being any European countries accepting immigrants who don't speak the official languages unless they are rich or famous. :rolleyes:

Now are we going to have more goal-post moving by way of new qualifications? Hopefully not. :eek:

Many of the "non-nationals" in Europe do fit what I stated earlier... government perception or misperception besides the point.

And promptly forgot it ... :Q

Been waiting for some spare time to reply to this thread. So, my apologies if my reply runs long.

I would like to think that I do try to fit in as well as I can, consistent with stut's comments, as I pretty much agree with him. This is why I've learned as many languages as I have. My knowledge of Italian and Hebrew are directly attributable to my trips to Italy and Israel.

My experiences speaking foreign languages in foreign countries varies greatly. The French love that I speak with them in French and give me every opportunity to do so (as my French co-workers often do, as well), even though I rarely run into people who can't speak English (or so I suspect -- I think a lot of those who say they can't are just a little shy about it).

Germans, however, never seem to let me speak German with them! They're always reverting back to English on me! And, my German, although not as good as my French, is totally sufficient for conversation; they usually complement me on my competency. The only times I really get to speak German is if I meet a native German speaker who doesn't speak German (like my friend's father), which I've found to be rare, or I meet a native German speaker who is really accomodating.

Now Italian I picked up because I love Italy (as I do France, particularly southern France) and it's been my experience that one is much more likely to run into an Italian who can't speak English than most places in western Europe. Didn't know much the first time I went, but managed to learn a lot more by my second visit. Having a working knowledge of some Italian was a huge plus!

I decided to learn Hebrew out of respect for the place, it's an interesting language and not knowing any of the language leaves you at everyone's mercy. That last part is another reason why I study languages when I travel and it's something of a male, power thing of which I'm not terribly proud. Funny thing is that as I was trying to leave Israel and getting raked over the coals by the Israeli border guards (as were my two companions), I slipped up and it came out that I know some Hebrew. That made them WAY suspicious of me! And, since then I've learned much more than I knew then. I'd like to go back; the Hebrew will actually help me out. Of course, one can get by completely fine with just English when in Israel, but I love learning languages and will often take any excuse to do so.

But, beyond learning languages, learning about local customs and how they live is, in my opinion, one of the most important reasons to travel!

I nearly cried when I saw that Starbucks. I've referred to it elsewhere on FT.

Y'know, I hear y'all's points on this and can see the logic, but I simply cannot bring myself to go to McDonald's when I'm in Provence (for example). Sorry. I just can't!!!

Now, as far as all this acceptance of immigrants stuff goes, I only want to say that it is my understanding that the French are very accepting of immigrants, provided they assimilate into the culture. Sure, pockets of immigrants who don't assimilate into the broader culture exist, but it is far more looked down up than we Americans tend to do. But, that's all I'm going to say, as I think this part of the thread is deteriorating rapidly.

Well, the EU is a special case. As a citizen of the UK, I have the right to migrate to any EU country without having to speak a language or assimilate in the slightest way, if that's what I want. I think it's a daft thing to do, but I have that right.

I also take the time to skim the guidebook and learn just a little about the history and cluture so that I can ask locals easy questions about it, which usually allows me to learn a lot more, directly from the source. I also think it's important to have a great sense of humor and not take yourself too seriously when in other countries.

There are certain Starbucks and McDonalds outlets around the world that if someone came along at night (when no-one was in there) and demolished them with a bulldozer, I genuinely don't think they ought to be prosecuted for it. Some of them are so ruthlessly ugly and improperly situated that they don't deserve legal protection. (Obviously I wouldn't want anything to happen to the actual people that work there).

I have done a quick review of what appears on the web regarding the requirements of Sweden on permanent residency status (and citizenship as well), and indeed, they do not require Swedish language skills as a requirement. That said, I am now curious. Are these people that you know primarily the spouses/significant others of Swedes or did they simply decide to move to Sweden? The government websites sugggest that while you can get permanent residency through employment, it is not easy to get employment approval because Swedes and EU/EEA citizens are in front of you in line (so to speak). Also, I would assume that most employers would want you to speak Swedish (although I know that there are some careers where this is unnecessary).

Of the individuals whom I know, they don't "primarily" fall into any one category; I know people who have spouses/S.O.s and who do not. I also know many Canadians and Americans (amongst others) working in Sweden who didn't speak any Swedish (more than the likes of "hamburger" and "apple" and "hi") when they moved to Sweden for employment and are not spouses/SOs of Swedish nationals. (And I'm not talking just about exec. relocation here either. ;) ) Few of their employers made an issue about Swedish. Some of the people I know in Sweden now speak it ... but that was years after getting residency and even citizenship in some cases.

By the way, Sweden is not the only case in Europe either. Then again, I'm not here to get everyone's research done for them either. ;) Glad to see some take their own initiative. :)

Some others had doubt that any European country accepted immigrants who didn't speak the official language(s) unless they were rich or famous. Clearly there are some European countries that do accept immigrants who don't speak the official language(s) and are not rich or famous. Unless goal-posts are moved, such doubts were a shot on goal, an own-goal shot. :eek:

"In Rome, do as Romans" includes jumping to incorrect conclusions about "local" conditions and accepting local and/or foreign stereotypes? I would hope not.

When in Rome, I do as I deem fit.

What country in Europe would be the easiest for a US citizen to get citizenship in and how?

The same answer you got for Canada is the same answer I give you for Europe: it depends on the circumstances.

Sorry, I was considering this a discussion, not a competition, or debating tournament. I have moved past the original point-counterpoint that started this. I really am interested in people and how they achieve migration to countries other than the one they were born/raised in. I know plenty about the U. S., its policies on immigration, and how people become green card holders. I am interested in how other people manage to move to "Rome", or in this case, Sweden.

US Citizen looking to relocate to the EU zone. Set financially so will not be working or expecting to unless required.

There are several ways to go about this.

See if you have a parent or grandparent or spouse who is, was or could acquire citizenship of one of the EU countries. Italy seems to have worked well for a good number of people I know this way.

Look at at investing in some of the EU countries as a vehcile to get residency and later citizenship.

Find an employer willing to sponsor you.

... and then there are the less routine officially-sanctioned methods and also some more questionable ones that are not officially-sanctioned but do "work".

For "Rome", see my prior post responding to drbond.

Let's just say a lot of Argentines discovered who could become an Italian citizen a couple of years ago. :D A bit of the same for Spanish citizenship too. Getting Swedish residency or even citizenship has not necessarily meant "in Stockholm, do as the Swedes".

Do you want to expand the discussion of "immgration" to things like the UK's "indefinite leave to remain/enter" and "settled status"?

Why do you want citizenship of another country when you could just live there as an immigrant? Don't you have any sort of preferences beyond "somewhere in the EU and not in the US"?

Let me google those terms first and find out more about them. We've dragged this thread pretty far away from the OPs original intent. :D

I find the whole subject of immigration, what moves people to migrate (especially beyond the most basic reasons of survival or economics), what countries do to either enable or bar immigration, and how people manage that bureaucracy fascinating.

In some sense, it ties in to the travel bug, but at the extreme end.

From who has the most visa stamps to who has the most passports. :D

Please forgive me for wondering. I wasn't aware that wondering whether something is/is not true was equivalent to claiming that something is/is not true.

"I doubt that any European countries would (unless said immigrant has mucho dinero or celebrity status)." Sounds like a bit less than wondering. In any event, it's clear that such doubt applied to European countries writ large is misplaced, for some and then some certainly do accept immigrants who don't speak the "official" language and don't have mucho dinero or celebrity status.

Bolding added for emphasis:

I was afraid I was not mistaken; and I wasn't.

Also, a person who couldn't speak French was made a citizen of France earlier this year too. Unless a miracle happened, she wouldn't be speaking French today either. Perhaps not the norm, but it happens.