That's pretty dispositive.

Right -- I can't recall a landing without a double-ding, though the announcement is usually along the lines of, put your seats upright, etc., etc., . . . and restow your carryons under your seat or in the overhead. In other words, people do get up then. For what it's worth, I always put my seat up when the FAs announce it.

Not always, particularly on United. When I flew CO, there was always a double-ding -- that was my cue to pull out my MP3 player. UA frequently, but not always, announces "No PEDs until 10 minutes after take off." Sometimes that coincides with a double-ding, sometimes there is no double-ding at all.

Except that is still an opinion, albeit a more informed one than us non-pilots. If you fly commercial passenger-carrying aircraft, I'll take your opinion as dispositive. If not, and I understand you correctly, "takeoff" definitions vary and can be as low as 500 feet. Incidently, does that coincide with wheels up?

That's what I thought. Thanks.

Do you think it's rude because it's below 10k, or because it's reclined at all. With all due respect, recline policy is set by the carrier, and UA has been quite specific that it is not rude to recline -- I've been on numerous UA flights when the FAs post-climb-out announcement has been: "We invite you to recline your seat, relax and enjoy your flight." I'm not going to get into the recline/no recline debate again. If your objection is just to reclining below 10K, I'd be curious to know your reasoning.

That certainly makes sense to me. I have "regulated" other pax on occassion by asking them to turn off cellphones and CD players that were still on during our takeoff roll.

Well, it does a bit. I'm still not clear on the 10k part, though.

Interesting. I've always heard the double-chime on every airline I can recall flying recently. In United's case, it's possible that company policy substitutes 10 minutes for 10,000 feet. Is there an announcement made after 10 minutes similar to "you may now use electronic devices"? Maybe that announcement can be delayed to correspond to 10,000 feet. I'm just not familiar with United's company-specifc policy.

I'm currently Instrument rated and will hold a commercial certificate shortly. I have completed all ground work for the commercial license. The 500 feet is again (as with a lot of things that aren't in the FAR) company-specific.

500 feet is the point at which the Pilot in Command will complete/call for the Climb checklist (basically transitioning from the takeoff phase to the climbout phase). Wheels will already be up at this point unless there is an abnormal reason for delaying gear retraction. 500 is (at my company) considered the safe altitude for doing something other than looking out the window, hands on the flight controls. The reasoning for this is below 500, you have very little time to react if something goes wrong, so you need to be ready at all times.


I re-read what I wrote and it didn't come across the way I meant it. What I was trying to say was that the act of telling someone to put their seat up was rude. I have no problem with people reclining at all. That feature is built into the seat and should be used if you want to.


There is actually a very slight possibility of one of these things interfering with navigation. Not so much the CD players/Ipod/etc (as another poster already stated, we want those off so you hear instructions in an emergency). But if you want to try an interesting experiment, put you cell on the desk next to a computer/radio and then call it. Now consider that most aircraft navigation is computer/radio. Cell phones on aircraft=not a great idea during takeoff and landing.


Basically 10,000 is the established altitude (by most airlines... again company-specific policy) below which the airline restricts the use of PED's. Most airlines also incorporate the "seat backs and tray tables upright in preparation for landing" into the same instruction.

Unfortunantly all you're going to find on whether 10,000 is an acceptable altitude for reclining to begin is opinion. There is no written rule in the FARs, and AFAIK, no airline has a specific seat-recline policy.

As a pilot, I can tell you that above 10,000 there is very little chance of any emergency situation arising. If one were to arise, you would have enough time to bring your seat up before an emergency landing. Below 10,000 things happen much more quickly if there is a major emergency. That's what I base my suggestion of not reclining before the double-ding on.

Like I said before though, PEDs are a much bigger issue. If someone reclines at (say) 5,000 it's not a huge deal and there's no reason to say anything to them. I've even been known to recline a bit before the double-ding if I'm tired and trying to get some sleep on a short flight. What I'm saying can essentially be summed up as it is not a good idea to recline immeadiately on wheels up.

Ok, so now that I've given everyone on this board more info than they ever wanted, I'll just re-state my first point in the thread. Seat reclining and seatbelt signs are not linked in any way. If you're trying to regulate someone based on them reclining before the seatbelt sign is off then you are being obnoxious. On many US airlines, the seatbelt sign is not turned off until reaching cruise altitude (part safety, part liability, but that's another topic). There is no safety concern during that time period related to seatback position.

Bumping this up.

I asked the FAs on my UA SFO to EWR flight last night.

Answer: you can recline as soon as wheels are up.

BTW.... when you turn off the ipod, all that happens is the screen turns off, the ipod itself is still, pretty much on, so turning it off won't do anything.

You are going to keep asking until you hear the answer you want, aren't you?

Happy now? you've got someone who agrees with you. You asked for a pilot's opinion got one, but it wasn't the one you wanted so you kept on asking. How many flights did you ask on before you could report back here with a positive answer?

I'm sure you can recline. Whether it is safe for you and the passenger behind you to do so still remains another matter. If you are selfish enough to risk their safety and yours for 2 mins of extra recline, then that says quite a lot about you!

Per the pilot, there is no FAR and pollicy varies from company to company. I wanted to know UA's policy, because that's my primary carrier.

This is what the pilot wrote:

"Unfortunantly all you're going to find on whether 10,000 is an acceptable altitude for reclining to begin is opinion. There is no written rule in the FARs, and AFAIK, no airline has a specific seat-recline policy."

Well, evidently UA does -- you can recline after wheels up or, more accurately, there's no reason not to recline after wheels up (other than some nasty FTer attacking you, that is).

What's your problem? Are you one of those, "Recliners are the antichrist" people?

That was the only one. I happened to be in the exit row on a UA 757, so I was facing the two FAs in their jumpseats on takeoff. That reminded me of the question so I asked. I didn't even see J-M's post until I saw your charming missive.

Thank you in advance for your apology for the insulting tone of your post.

1. It's perfectly safe. Otherwise UA wouldn't allow it. If you think it is unsafe, I trust you'll never fly UA airlines (and I certainly support you in that decision).

2. If you don't like reclining, book the bulkhead or fly first class. Your tone, your false insinuations and your hypocrisy say a lot about you. Have a nice day.

Just because you�ve been assured that it�s OK to recline on your airline of choice, why won�t you accept that other airlines have made (on at least some of their flights) announcements requesting pax not to recline until the seatbelt sign has been extinguished?

What this thread has proved is that there ARE reasons for keeping your seat up. Plenty of them.

And that the sort of person who prematurely declines prefers to focus solely on facts that support their own viewpoint.

1. Am I rude? Perhaps.

2. Is someone reclining prematurely putting me in danger? Perhaps

As there�s a chance that the second �perhaps� could have serious repercussions, I�ve still no compunctions about coming across as the first �perhaps�.

3. Am I being nasty? As I actually believe all the crap I�m saying, then no. Not only that, I also believe I�m doing you a favour!

Back on topic...

I've never regulated anyone in the air, but I way too FREQUENTLY find myself regulating people on the ground who think that they don't have to wait on line.

Happened recently at CDG transfer desk, and sometimes in IST when it's crowded. The usual trick is that one person will wander up and down as though looking for someone one, do it enough untl you get used to them and then stop there... then the whole family of 22 comes to join their friend.

I don't care what language the speak, what country they come from or how oblivious they pretend to be.

On occasion I've even grabbed them by the arm and pulled them back behind me.

This is a pet peeve of mine. I'm always amazed that some travellers allow this presuambly just to avoid a confrontation. I'm happy to confront and I'm happy to call over security if I need to. Once security is there, others will always chime in and confirm that the offender has jumped, but it's interesting that they will never say anything until someone else (me!) does first...

I would only intervene if what they are doing can effect my safety. Not keeping their tray tables up or having their seat pushed back doesn't really effect me. I would say something if they are talking on the cell phone or something, but that would be about it.

You obviously also missed the bit where he wrote, in bold,
And you still haven't addressed the safety issue I'd pointed out in an earlier post, explaining why reclining on wheels up is not a good idea (because the seats are not certificated to provide spinal support and cushioning in the event of an accident when reclined, and the kind of accidents they are designed to assist in can still occur for a period after wheels up). Would I expect cabin crew to be fully conversant with the certification requirements of aircraft to be able to explain this? Probably not - I had it explained to me by an air accident investigation specialist. Its funny how travelling with one of them opens up your eyes to a whole load of issues you'd rather not know anything about.

No, I'm one of those "people who put my safety at risk are the antichrist" people. Especially when its for an extra 2-3 mins of benefit to them. Sorry, I don't consider that an acceptable trade-off, when its my life or health at risk. So I can be quite anal about insisting those in front of me have their seat up for take-off and landing...particuarly ones who let the crew do the cabin check, and then recline back down again.

ROFLMAO. You think airlines only allow safe things? Oh dear, you have an awful lot to learn about flight safety issues. If that were the case, most accidents would not have happened! Actually, I prefer not to fly US-based airlines, I have some issues with their regulators and what they allow airlines to get away with in terms of cabin safety, although I would have to admit (in true FT fashion) I am more swayed by the fact their service is generally not that good.

Finally, I do recline long-haul. But not in a way which puts other people at increased risk of dying during critical phases of the flight. But then, I have a basic understanding of flight safety issues, since I have worked in the field for 10 years.

Then I'll address it now. Until either the carrier or the FAA identifies a safety hazard associated with post-wheels-up reclining, I don't believe there is one. J-M indicated that the FAA had not identified any such hazard, and other than saying, essentially, "S*** happens below 10,000 feet," offered no explanation for why reclining presented any significant risk. UA is a commercial carrier (and, as it happens, my commercial carrier of choice). According to UA's FAs, who, as you know, "are there for your safety," and most certainly are conversant with FARs related to safe in-flight passenger conduct, said that it is safe, and there was no reason not to recline.

Your claim is just one more unsupported and unverified opinion. If, on any flight, either the FAs or the pilot announced that seats should not be reclined until 10,000 feet, I wouldn't recline until 10,000 feet -- I always follow crew instructions in-flight. However, I have no intention of disregarding the UA FAs who told me reclining on wheels up was fine because your opinion is that it's dangerous, and J-M's opinion that s*** happens (though, of course, if J-M starts flying for my carriers and decides that it should be the rule on his flights, I'd follow it).

And, sorry, but I'll go with the people whose job it is to know and enforce in-flight safety policies, i.e. the FAs and the pilots on the aircraft on which I fly.

Well, we'll have an interesting situation if you're ever in back of me on a UA flight. If the FAs say it's okay to recline, I'll recline (and they have). If you insist, despite the instruction from the FAs that it's okay to recline, you'll be ignored.

I think that the FAs and the pilot of a UA mainline aircraft are both the best and ultimate authority for what is safe and what is not safe.

Then you might want to petition the airlines, the FAA and the U.S. Congress to change the rules because, evidently, none agree with you.

why would the US congress care about rules? maybe for US airlines, this is travelbuzz, so we don't talk only US airlines - do we? so please go to a broader level than UA, FAA and U.S. Congress

Jenbel's posts were in response to my report of what I was told by UA FAs. UA is a US carrier.

from what I read, maybe you just had a lazy crew? I'd care about what air accident investigation specialists tell ... those guys know alot more than crew, inflight for a couple of month or more ... and aren't pilots onboard to fly the plane ... if there are rules ... they are for some reason

just my two �cents

I could write chapter and verse on where the FAA are deficient in terms of ignoring clear and obvious dangers in a number of fields. I can point at accidents which have been caused as a result of FAA or airline laxity (or indeed airport laxity) in safety issues, and even worse where the causes have not been addressed. I'm not going to a) because I can't be arsed, I'd usually get paid for doing stuff like that, and b) it's taking the thread far too far off topic. Sufficeit to say, my earlier impression was correct. You will not be convinced that you are wrong, and will only listen to opinions which agree with yours, no matter how spurious the evidence. Well enjoy that extra 2-3 mins of comfort at increased risk to your own safety and the safety of those around you. Since I don't fly UA, hopefully I can avoid the increased risk that you would cause me

(But please keep politicians out of flight safety issues - look at the mess they have made getting involved with security! )