fraisse10

Travelling 1st class Lille - Poitiers in early April. Any tips on the catering, service; anything else that would help the planning or smooth the trip? Grateful for any tips and advice.

magexpect

Don't expect too much from the meal you are going to be served... Best you buy yourself some nice sandwiches before boarding or just wait till you get to your destination to enjoy a nice meal in one of the restaurants.

This train ride is no major expedition. Just have you ticket ready, don't bring too much luggage aboard and get there plenty of time ahead. Depending at what time your train leaves, you might find a passenger already seated at your place as they are known to make mistakes with reservations.

Otherwise just enjoy yourself.

francophile

I agree. If Lille's TGV station is like any other major TGV station, then it's likely going to have a boulangerie (bonne journee, perhaps?) where you can buy sandwiches made on very fresh baguettes and pain de mie rolls and with tasty fillings. Pick up some luscious desserts too.

stut

From memory, Lille-Poitiers goes from Lille Europe rather than Lille Flandres (I could be wrong here) - but check if it's not explicit. Lille Europe was built specifically for the high speed line (that connects the Channel Tunnel to the Paris line), and is minimal, but acceptable. There's a couple of sandwicheries (your standard Pains ŕ la Ligne places) and (what else?) an Irish pub.

Check your reservation. If you're not happy with it, there are 'échange minute' machines throughout the station, which allow you to change it free of charge (assuming you have an SNCF-issued ticket). Very useful - it's definitely worth going for the right kind of seat (individual, if you're travelling alone).

Not all TGVs have catering, even in 1st class. This particularly applies to the cross-country ones. The last one I was on, from Lille to Chessy (which I think was headed on to Bordeaux), had nothing but vending machines. If you're expecting to eat, check up on the schedule, and get something at the station, if necessary.

1st class is comfortable enough, but some of the older carriages do look a little worn now. The old-style 1st class (where the individual seats are) do not have seats that recline. The 'club duo/club quatre' seats do, I think. There's also a 'salon' at the end of the train, which can be booked for groups, but is very often empty (the cross-country TGVs can be awfully quiet).

Otherwise... Enjoy your journey! I always like travelling on these machines: the speed at which you see everything go past is impressive. The traffic on the Autoroute du Nord seems stationary as you go past (and not just on the run-up to Paris where it usually is stationary...), and you can see the scenery completely changing as you glance up from your book, such is the speed... Look out for the inevitable change in weather as you pass Senlis into Ile-de-France

stut

Oh, and don't forget to 'composter' your ticket and your reservation slip!

monahos

Not that I have tried all types of TGV trains, but every 1st class car I have been on in the past 20 years had reclining seats. The lever is well hidden and one must apply a forward motion to the bottom cushion to achieve recline, not really obvious.


My recommendation, not completely in jest, would be to bring a window cleaning kit to scrub down the exterior of your window from the platform, if you care about the view. Neither Air France nor the SNCF seem to wash the exterior of their equipment often enough!



[This message has been edited by monahos (edited Feb 22, 2004).]

luxury

If you have experienced the German ICE or Japanese shinkansen trains, then the SNCF TGV will be a tremendous disappointment. The trains creak, rattle, bump and are noisy; when the tracks bank to make a large turn, so does the train so be sure to hold onto anything on your table!! When the train is going at speed it is, still, exhilirating though. Too bad the French just don't know how to make trains. .
Trains de grand vitesse? Quelquefois. . .

monahos

From an engineering point of view, the TGV is an excellent design (shared bogies for low weight and trainset rigidity) with an outstanding safety record (2 deaths in 12 accidents, mostly with disabled vehicles on road crossings on non-high speed segments). The ICE's one accident resulted in 98 deaths, and the two design elements which contributed to this toll (non-shared bogies and since-abandoned compound rubber-steel wheels) are not found on the TGV. The Shinkansen, despite being the oldest and highest volume service, has no fatalities in its 40 years.

For information, a 8-car ICE3 trainset costs ~23M, a 8 car double-decker TGV Duplex ~20M, a 16 car 700 Series Shinkansen ~40M, and the 16 car 500 Series Shinkansen, the Rolls-Royce of trains with its 64 motors and brazed aluminum honeycomb construction, ~50M. Note that cost/car is not directly comparable between trainsets with unpowered (TGV/ICE1/2) and powered (ICE3/Shinkansen) cars.

The Japanese trains are expensive due to their design requirements: low load per axle precluding locomotives (related to earthquake worthiness of the elevated tracks, need to limit track wear despite high frequency), emitted noise in crowded areas, and targets for interior comfort (65dB @ 270km/h, a little more than a Lexus LS on the freeway!), with such exotic technologies as active vibration dampers. No wonder the Shinkansen has not had many export wins (Taiwan being the only one), as most operators are not about to pay for such refinements in their first generation of high speed trains!


In short, the TGV is an intelligently designed train on which the little details were not sweated out as on Japanese trains; nor was it needlessly overengineered, or lavishly appointed, as the ICE. Parallels could be made to the respective countries' auto industries. I tend to attribute some of this to the 14 year Socialist rule in France, which saw the end of the luxurious French TEE trains, replaced by the egalitarian TGV's.


And the alternative would be? Straight tracks are only possible in Australia and North America



[This message has been edited by monahos (edited Feb 22, 2004).]

luxury

Thanks Monahos..... I never thought of this from an engineering standpoint -- I only relate as a passenger. In Japan, the shinkansen are, on the whole, a lot quieter and smoother, and when the tracks bank fairly sharply, most trains stabilize to minimise the effect of having whatever is on the tray tables to fly across the train. It should be noted that the Japanese trains are wider too; in Standard class on the TGV, the seats are 2x2 and in First class, 1x2. In Japan, in Standard class is 2x3 and in First Class, 2x2, unless it is a special trainset (double decker, etc etc etc).

In Japan, all I hear is the hum of the electric engines and the rhythmic clackety clack on the wheels. In France, I hear not only the hum of the electricity but also the rumble of the engines, the rattles, the creaks, bumps, etc so I just feel the ride quality is not as nice. Finally, why cannot the French engineer the trains AND the station so that the train is level with the station upon arrival, thereby not needing steps to climb up and down!!??

I think it is important to consider that most shinkansen are 16 cars long and there are about 400 departures and arrivals a day from Tokyo Central station.

However, there is a certain thrill of travelling 300km per hour, both on the Nozomi 500 in Japan as you past Himeji and on the TGV on the straightaway coming up from Marseilles past Valence into Lyon. A great feeling!!

Again, thanks Monahos!! One certainly learns something new everyday!! Cheers,

jpatokal

The alternative would be having the train tilt into the curve, so the passengers don't notice it. This is actually commonly used in sub-high-speed tilting trains like the Italian Pendolino (used in Italy, Finland and Slovenia just to name a few), and the German ICE-T -- I'm not sure whether this is a really bad pun, or just shows that Germans are completely humorless -- can do tilting even at high speeds. There's even a TGV Pendulaire in the works but I don't think it's in commercial use anywhere...



[This message has been edited by jpatokal (edited Feb 22, 2004).]

magexpect

Bad experience with the Pendolino. Also with the Swiss Railways. Some people refuse to get on them because they get sick...

monahos

The bank angle on a train track is calculated for a given maximum speed, as trains do not have the option of choosing their line as would a car on a banked track. High-speed lines have large radius turns, to minimize the slowdown.

If the train goes slower, people will 'fall in', as noted by luxury. Tilt trains do not address that problem.

To go faster in turns, the only option short of laying new track are tilt trains. While lateral loads on the passengers may be limited, they will certainly notice the extra tilt, especially since there is a plane of reference just outside the windows. On less smooth implementations such as Fiat's Pendolino, motion sickness is common.

Tilt trains are just a trick to gain a little speed through turns. As tilt trains subject the tracks to additional lateral loads, they are all are lightweight, reduced cross-section aluminum constructions, not optimal for high-volume lines. The one exception is Amtrak's Acela, way overweight due to obsolete US crash regulations; predictably, this train suffers from excessive wheel track/wear and cracking in suspension components.

That said, many next-generation high-speed trains (TGV and Shinkansen included) are slated to be tilt trains, due to saturation of the original tracks (the TGV Sud-Est and the Tokaido Shinkansen being the busiest rail lines in the world).

On a different note, my favorite train so far is JR Kyushu's Kamome, operating on the narrow-gauge Hakata-Nakasaki line. Next would be DB's ICE3.

fraisse10

Tickets were issued by the French Rail office in London and are airline sized! Is it possible to composter these? Also, there isn't a separate reservation slip; the numbers are printed on the ticket.

Yes, the journey is from Lille Europe; we shall interchange from Eurostar. Don't know if that affects the catering outlets we can access?

Thanks for all advice so far, including on tilting train technology !?!

monahos

Sorry about the OT rambling...


TGV tickets, and many European international train tickets, are airline sized. TGV tickets don't have a separate reservation slip since reservations are mandatory.

The rather primitive 'composting machine' will just punch a notch in a corner (any corner) of your ticket, so it works regardless of its format and stock.