GU: Austria is not a surprise. There were
I admit plenty of people there who were
perfectly polite to me, though; just that
there were those who weren't and who made
my skin crawl.

London took me completely aback. I was wearing
a YSL outfit (can neither afford nor fit into
such any more), and D. is married to someone
who is well-connected, so she dresses the
part. We were in an ostensibly civilized
restaurant in what God knows was a bastion
of civilization. That the worst example took
place there was shocking; I've been ignored
and moderately rudely treated in many
places, mostly in marginal areas, but here
not only did I "belong," I looked like I
"belonged."

Mostly in the US the racism has been, as you
say, transcended. Or at least, when it
occurs, it is much more genteel than it used
to be!

Which brings me to a semi-funny semi-offtopic
story, my last words on this subject here.
Takes place in a large US city, where I was
living at the time.

The president of the Suzuki Association of
America (that's violins, not motorcycles) was
taking off for Japan for a year to study at
the feet of the Master (this was quite a
while ago), so I had a going-away party for
him. Unfortunately, he brought a date - who
was black. On the way, they and another guest
had rocks and things heaved at them, but they
made it safely to my apartment. But then the
landlord called. He'd received a threat that
if we didn't get rid of the black woman
immediately, the house would be burned down.

One of the partygoers just turned out to be
assistant AG for civil rights affairs in that
particular state, so she called her boss and
had a police guard on the building, an
emergency restraining order against persons
unknown, and other safeguards - sort of
overkill, truth be told. But I wonder what
would have happened had we not been members
of a fairly privileged subsection of society.

VIOLIST, I don't want to be rude, but how old are you? When did these incidents happen?

To the person who said Belgium was racist, this surprises me.

Have you ever been discriminated against in your travels because of your race, religion or nationality? If so, where?

* every time I (swiss) try to enter the USA I must queu the (often long) lines of 'non-american-passport-holders'
* when applying for a Visa to Saudi-Arabia (on business), I had to send in a certified copy of my christian baptisation certificate (to make sure that I am not jewish) ...
* I (swiss) don't qualify for any american credit card (even that I have an american bank account in very good standing for our Napa valley wine business), as I have no US-credit-record
* my (swiss) father wasn't allowed to marry my (german) mother (and to get her out of Nazi Germany) in 1939 without proof that his family was pure arian for at least 3 generations back ... something that swiss authorities first did decline to certify, until the then in charge captain of St.Gallen police Mr. Grueniger, now considered to be a real hero by israel and finally also swiss authorities, decided otherwise and gave my father the much needed stamp on such a statement (otherwise I would never have been born ...)
* my mother (not speaking swiss german yet) was not served/ignored after immigration to Switzerland in swiss shops during the early days of world-war II (she learned swiss german very fast then)
* even if I would become a US citicen, I would not be allowed to become President (not being born in the USA)
* as a (swiss) male, I only get the swiss state pension (AHV) at the age of 65, woman get that pension already at the age of 64
* UA MileagePlus restricts most of their mileage-bonus-promotions to USA based members ... (that's no nationality 'discrimination', but still ...).


[This message has been edited by Rudi (edited Mar 09, 2004).]

Why does it surprise you? Belgium is after all the bastion of that myth of "Europeaness".

I am not saying that the majority of Belgians are racist -- actually, I trust it to be only a small minority if my friends and acquaintances from Belgium are any measure of Belgium. However, there is a view amongst a sizeable minority in Brussels (like many places in Europe) that people who do not look like "traditional" or "native" _____ [fill in nationality] are naturally from the poor third world masses looking to raid the country and radically transform it.

Even in Sweden -- a presumed bastion of liberals who know not how liberal they truly are, if there ever was such a bastion -- I have heard stories such as workplace leaders (in some cases even senior judges) indicating to staff that they want "no people with foreign names". Of course the resumes of such persons are sidelined merely becauce of such "non-traditional" names regardless of the qualifications. By foreign names, they usually mean African or Middle Eastern sounding names.

Are not most multilateral organizations (such as the UN, World Bank/IMF and most regional development banks) still likely to compensate nationals from third world countries less than nationals from OECD countries despite doing the same work and posted in the same place?

I know the UN Peacekeepers most certainly do not get paid the same.

I wonder if the Saudis try and pull the same junk with Americans? If they do, then I hope that our government let's loose the dogs of diplomacy on Saudi Arabia. An American is an American is an American, just like a Swiss is a Swiss is a Swiss. Asking for religious-based identification is intolerant and unbefitting of a respectable state.

That said, I know the Saudis are not keen to give tourism visas to Americans and, I have heard, even are a pain in the neck towards muslims trying to fulfill their religious duty and go on a pilgrimage to Mecca. It is said that non-muslims are not even allowed to visit, which I find to be a crock and counterproductive -- especially for a state that claims to proselytize for its national religion.

nonsense.

peace keepers are paid differently, depending on the nation/army that did send them (I know the different KAVOR salaries for soldiers serving for Denmark or Germany), the same 'goes' for people serving for the Red Cross in IRAK (I now the small difference what swiss or french RedCross people serving there currently are paid)

You might want to check into this a bit more.

I am pretty certain that there is a compensation difference at least in the case of UN and NATO peacekeepers. The excuse, of course, may be that the home country of said troops is paying the bill and salaries directly.

In Kosovo, for example the KFOR peacekeepers that were American got paid multiples more than what the others (particularly the Bangladeshis/Pakistanis) did. There are reasons for this differential, many of which are legitimate.

However, the World Bank has been known to have consultants whose compensation they try to peg based on nationality when certain nationals are working outside of their "home" country.

Pardon me if I don't answer directly but
I am older than dhammer53.

Eastern shore: before but not that much
before the Civil Rights Act of 1964

Color bar in high school: mid-1960s

Suzuki: mid-1980s

London: 1995, approximately (don't remember
the exact date; I used to go to the National
Gallery every year or two)

Austria: 1 or 2 years ago.

And in Belgium, I have the feeling that they
kind of look funny at anyone who isn't fair,
fat, and Flemish, although I am not the one
claiming that they regularly practice racism.

well, I've found Flemish people and Dutch people aren't the most cheerful people in Europe so maybe I can understand how they seemed racist. I've never compared Flemish people to Dutch people so I don't know if its fair to group them together.

I can say that generally speaking Flemish and Dutch are ultra conservative. Amsterdam is one thing, the countryside is something else.

I knew several Jewish people who said Austria is the most anti semitic place they've ever been. It's good to get all these views because I find Austrians to be some of the most helpful and friendly people I've ever come across.

I find Turks friendly and recommended Turkey to some black friends, they came back telling me they had never met such racists in all their lives as the Turks. So it's good to get all view points.

That is interesting. I have a friend from Nigeria who worked in Istanbul for a few years and loved it for his years there and goes from DC to Istanbul still for vacations.

Sure.. how 'bout this one..

My significant other and I had rented a car and wished to both be listed as drivers. The rental car company wanted to charge us extra for the second driver, but it turned out that they had a policy which waived the charge for spouses. Apparently, significant others living at the same address were entitled to the same waiver -- but only if the two persons were of opposite gender. As a cohabitating male-male couple, we didn't qualify.

Fortunately, once we pointed out the discriminatory nature of this policy, the clerk very kindly found a way to make an exception for us. (But the company's discriminatory policy still stands, as far as I know.)

Here in the "Land of the Free" (that's the U.S., by the way), discrimination based on sexual orientation is still legal (though it's been banned in some states), and at the moment, it appears that the U.S. Constitution may soon be amended to incorporate a highly discriminatory provision. With so much official government endorsement of discrimination, I guess it's a surprise that we don't actually see *more* of it as we travel!!

This policy might be easy to quietly circumvent if your sig other has a gender-neutral name? (I am assuming he either does not, or he was required to show up at the desk.)

Frequently and subtly on gender as well. Expecting random blokes standing next to me in queues to be my partner/SO, the table thing that Analise talked about as well. It happens so frequently that I start to not notice it after a while.